Don't Ask, Don't Tell - Dead

[dross]

Same old stuff! "I don't have any personal knowledge or experience but my (uninformed) opinion on a military issue is just as good as someone who has 4 or 6 or 10 or more years of personal knowledge and experience on which his (informed) opinion is based."

I have personal knowledge and an informed opinion, and I disagree.

Agree or disagree, but military experience isn't a trump card, and it doesn't mean that you necessarily feel a particular way about this issue.

 

[Expat]

Why is it a perversion? What is it about homosexuality that brings out the sickening concept? Politics? No different than the right to life scum that bomb clinics and murder abortionists. How about the Southern Baptists that rally at funerals of soldiers? Pretty disgusting to me and many others. Religion? Please. Religion has been the rally cry of ignorance and murderers all over the world, NOT just Islam either.

Why run to the "perversion" card? I will agree with you that the homophobia card is used too much, but I have to call it when I see it. Animals in the wild have exhibited homosexual behaviors and "God" made them too! Perversion? What system is used as the base to consider homosexuality as a perversion or abnormality, giving it a negative connotation?

Basing "perversion" on religion or the Bible (or Koran, or Jewish texts or book dujour) is an arguement based on pathos and holds little water when society demands logos.

Obviously no one can respond to this without breaking the no religious posting rule, which your post most certainly violates. I will just point out that the Westboro Baptist Church is not a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. The rest of your post is equally ignorant.

 

[Pocketman]

To begin with, there is no such thing as "gay rights," only just plain "rights." Secondly, there is no right to serve in the military. The military must discriminate to keep the force in the best state of readiness. There is such a thing as BFOQ (bona fide occupational requirement) which may eventually come into play here. Bottom line, the judge had no authority to rule on this.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Obviously no one can respond to this without breaking the no religious posting rule, which your post most certainly violates. I will just point out that the Westboro Baptist Church is not a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. The rest of your post is equally ignorant.

I will concede to you on the Westboro, my mistake.

The rest, I will not concede. Ignorance is based in lack of information. I have researched my position. I do not base it upon "perversion" or similar dreck.

I will concede a few things: People's views on things can and cannot be changed depending on what our personal investment into them are. I have invested as heavily into my views regarding homosexuality as others have in regards to anti-homosexuality. I acknowledge their views as long as they are based on logic, not hate, not religion and not pathos. I see no logic in anti-homosexuality.

 

[dross]

I will concede to you on the Westboro, my mistake.

The rest, I will not concede. Ignorance is based in lack of information. I have researched my position. I do not base it upon "perversion" or similar dreck.

I will concede a few things: People's views on things can and cannot be changed depending on what our personal investment into them are. I have invested as heavily into my views regarding homosexuality as others have in regards to anti-homosexuality. I acknowledge their views as long as they are based on logic, not hate, not religion and not pathos. I see no logic in anti-homosexuality.

If you subscribe to certain belief systems, a combination of which makes up most of the world's population, you probably believe that homosexuality is wrong. I really don't have a problem with that in principle, even though I think logic is a better method of determining your belief system.

My only problem with a belief system is when someone tries to compel others to adhere to that belief system.

I don't care if someone thinks it's wrong to have sex with someone of the same sex, I do care if they use the law to enforce their beleifs.

The military is a different matter. If I truly thought that having gay soldiers in the military would hurt military readiness, I'd be against it. I just don't think it would, after a period of adjustment. The same arguments were used for a segregated military, and the military led the way on that issue.

 

[PatriotPride]

Why is it a perversion? What is it about homosexuality that brings out the sickening concept? Politics? No different than the right to life scum that bomb clinics and murder abortionists. How about the Southern Baptists that rally at funerals of soldiers? Pretty disgusting to me and many others. Religion? Please. Religion has been the rally cry of ignorance and murderers all over the world, NOT just Islam either.

Why run to the "perversion" card? I will agree with you that the homophobia card is used too much, but I have to call it when I see it. Animals in the wild have exhibited homosexual behaviors and "God" made them too! Perversion? What system is used as the base to consider homosexuality as a perversion or abnormality, giving it a negative connotation?

Basing "perversion" on religion or the Bible (or Koran, or Jewish texts or book dujour) is an arguement based on pathos and holds little water when society demands logos.

Way to violate the new religion rule.

You can choose to belittle my faith and all people of faith until you're blue in the face. It doesn't make you right. There's no need to drag the thread down to the depths of ignorance---it was well on it's way before this post

 

[Disposable Heart]

If you subscribe to certain belief systems, a combination of which makes up most of the world's population, you probably believe that homosexuality is wrong. I really don't have a problem with that in principle, even though I think logic is a better method of determining your belief system.

My only problem with a belief system is when someone tries to compel others to adhere to that belief system.

I don't care if someone thinks it's wrong to have sex with someone of the same sex, I do care if they use the law to enforce their beleifs.

The military is a different matter. If I truly thought that having gay soldiers in the military would hurt military readiness, I'd be against it. I just don't think it would, after a period of adjustment. The same arguments were used for a segregated military, and the military led the way on that issue.

While I was looking at it in regards to personal beliefs and trying to apply logic to that, the truth at the core is the letter of the law of the land.

 

[j706]

Army, 1982 to 1993. 307th Combat Engineer Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division, early 1983 to late 1985. The rest of my career I was an electronic technician on the HAWK guided missile system.

Does any of that explain why I knew who the homosexuals were and you didn't?

Yea I guess it does. It explains to me that you say you had homo's in your unit. Maybe you did. But I/we did not.

 

[LEaSH]

What behavior of heterosexuals are allowed to be exhibited in service?

Are openly hetero discussions amongst soldiers performing their duties acceptable in anyone's logic. Lewdness or inappropriate conduct is not permitted by heteros in service and it wouldn't be by homosexuals as well.

So what underlying fears are there to gays showing up to do a job that could actually kill them - when they in fact love their country as much as any hetero can and do.

The deserve as much respect as anyone else that has served and continues to serve.

 

[Joe Williams]

Sure they are, but in the situation of showering together a straight man is not going to come on to a naked gay man and have sex with him. If their was a naked woman in the shower with the men that is a HUGE difference.

The gay man is as likely to come on to a straight man showering together as a straight man is likely to come on to a woman.

There is no difference.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Way to violate the new religion rule.

You can choose to belittle my faith and all people of faith until you're blue in the face. It doesn't make you right. There's no need to drag the thread down to the depths of ignorance---it was well on it's way before this post

Alright, let me just ask this: Can you put the view of "perversion" based in logic, no religion. What is it about homosexuality that makes it a "perversion"?

I will apologize for my comments on religion, it split my parents, messed up my life and hurt a friend of mine who followed it, well, religiously. It was the people runnign the churches that hurt those close to me, either through fraud or molestation. I have a personal admonishment towards it. I do apologize fully for that and you are owed at least that as I did show my arse in public quite a bit there with the posts. I did get carried away.

 

[Joe Williams]

I am not saying anyone is superior to anyone else if you can read. How many stories have you heard of a gay soldier raping another man in the military? But wait......there are tons of stories where straight soldiers "attack" a woman and rape her. But obviously you don't have a point in this argument because you cannot bring anything valid to it, but just keep saying the same things over and over again.

You should spend a decade enforcing the law in the military, before you make the unfounded assumption there are no incidents of gay men raping straight men.

Facts, though, may hinder your "all straight men are rapists" line of argument...

 

[Joe Williams]

It would normally be a case for the legislative or executive branches. The problem is that they have failed to address it, time and again. Events such as this have happened before, where the courts stepped in to correct a breach of rights. Brown vs. Board of Education comes immediately to mind. It ended an egregious policy while congress and the executive dithered. Sometimes Rights won't wait and they need a kick in the ribs that a court is willing to give them. The judge in this case actually delayed implementation of her ruling, in an attempt to give the executive and legislative branches a chance to make things right. They failed and the judge acted.

Can you show me where, in the Constitution, the sole power and authority to make the rules and regulations for the education establishment rests with Congress?

I can show you were that authority rests with Congress regarding the military.... which makes the judge's action a deliberate attack on the Constitution. The changes, if any, could only legally have come from Congress. If we had an executive branch that wasn't actively engaged in overthrowing the document, this decision would not be standing.

 

[j706]

The gay man is as likely to come on to a straight man showering together as a straight man is likely to come on to a woman.

There is no difference.

Except someone is gonna be getting one major azz whipping!! Heck I would probably end up in Leavenworth for life.

 

[PatriotPride]

Alright, let me just ask this: Can you put the view of "perversion" based in logic, no religion. What is it about homosexuality that makes it a "perversion"?

I will apologize for my comments on religion, it split my parents, messed up my life and hurt a friend of mine who followed it, well, religiously. It was the people runnign the churches that hurt those close to me, either through fraud or molestation. I have a personal admonishment towards it. I do apologize fully for that and you are owed at least that as I did show my arse in public quite a bit there with the posts. I did get carried away.

No harm, no foul.

When one removes the "religion" variable from the equation, I still see it as a perversion. It serves absolutely no reproductive purpose (does not further our race) and is contrary to established societal norms. Everyone will approach the problem differently.

 

[woowoo2]

Alright, let me just ask this: What is it about homosexuality that makes it a "perversion"?

It's like the round peg, square hole thing.....
It just don't go there.
Common sense

FWIW, I did six years in the Navy, I feel this court decision undermines the readiness of the troops.
That is my opinion........

 

[shibumiseeker]

Army, 1982 to 1993. 307th Combat Engineer Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division, early 1983 to late 1985. The rest of my career I was an electronic technician on the HAWK guided missile system.

Does any of that explain why I knew who the homosexuals were and you didn't?

Yea I guess it does. It explains to me that you say you had homo's in your unit. Maybe you did. But I/we did not.

Yeah, you did. But because of your obvious disgust and repulsion and probable aggression on the subject, you were just ignorant of the fact.

 

[j706]

Yeah, you did. But because of your obvious disgust and repulsion and probable aggression on the subject, you were just ignorant of the fact.

OK what ever you think. It is one sick warped guy that gets exited looking at some other guys hairy a--!!! Disgust? Yep you have that one right.

 

[LEaSH]

But he could save your life.
He could save the lives of the fellow soldiers around him.
Or she could do the same.

He or she could patch you up when you're bleeding from 10 different holes in your body.

Of course, they might see you naked when they're cutting off your bloody BDUs. But hey, rather than give them a rise, maybe it's best to just lay there and bleed like a righteous heterosexual guy while standing by your infallible belief that homos are gross.

 

[dross]

Yea I guess it does. It explains to me that you say you had homo's in your unit. Maybe you did. But I/we did not.

Your first premise was that someone who disagreed with DADT didn't have military experience. I pointed out that I disagreed, and I have military experience.

Then you changed your premise and said that it must have something to do with branch of service or MOS. I gave you my military history, and asked you how that supported your new premise. Now you've skirted that refutation.

We just disagree. These attempts to add weight to your point of view with your own personal experience are failing. Just argue the point on its merits. It's not like your position has no merit whatsoever, you just don't have some personal experience or insight that trumps everyone who disagrees.