FBI agent negligent shooting

[deeno3432]

I bet he wish hed had a holster with some or better retention.

 

[2A_Tom]

Is there such a thing as an SOB holster with retention?

 

[IndyTom]

Is there such a thing as an SOB holster with retention?

N82tactical?

 

[2A_Tom]

The ones I looked at on theit site have no retention at all.

 

[HoughMade]

Y'know...we may be asking a bit much to ask an IWB holster to have 100% retention in a backflip situation.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Is there such a thing as an SOB holster with retention?

Do they exist? Yes. Are any of quality exceeding Uncle Mike's levels? No idea. SOB is a lousy way to carry outside of a few very small niches, none of which will ever pertain to me so I've done zero research.

Here's one that's sure to be a winner. Insert purple as needed. https://tacticalgear.com/elite-surv...9FiX8jBoCJNwQAvD_BwE#/8315/653,437,727/1&dl=b

 

[rhino]

I may be way off base, but it seems like the consequences should reflect the outcome of the negligent behavior.

1. dropping gun from holster < 2. dropping gun from holster while doing a back flip < 3. dropping gun from holster while doing a back flip and then grabbing it with your finger in the trigger guard < 4. dropping gun from holster while doing a back flip and then grabbing it with your finger in the trigger guard and the gun discharges < 5. dropping gun from holster while doing a back flip and then grabbing it with your finger in the trigger guard and the gun discharges and the bullet hits someone who wasn't supposed to be shot

Letting him have his gun back and continue being an agent seems like only something like #1-3 happened, when in fact #5 happened.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I may be way off base, but it seems like the consequences should reflect the outcome of the negligent behavior.

I disagree. You don't control the ultimate outcome, you only control your own actions. Let's say you and I are ignorant jackwads and we set up some tin cans on a fence post to shoot at and don't notice the camp site out in the field. We both take a shot. There's a bullet in a car door and a bullet in someone's leg. Different charges? Or same?

Letting him have his gun back and continue being an agent seems like only something like #1-3 happened, when in fact #5 happened.

...for now. He's not been convicted of anything and isn't a threat to the community, as he's unlikely to re-offend as a break dancing discharger. The FBI will likely wait and see the results of the criminal suit, then move forward with their own internal decision making. If the guy eats a felony, then it's out of the FBI's hands and they don't have to deal with it.

 

[ATM]

And... if the guy doesn't attempt to claim it was unloaded, everyone gets free sushi dinners from Kirk!

 

[2A_Tom]

There wasn't 1 in the chamber, I racked the slide to check!

 

[rhino]

I disagree. You don't control the ultimate outcome, you only control your own actions. Let's say you and I are ignorant jackwads and we set up some tin cans on a fence post to shoot at and don't notice the camp site out in the field. We both take a shot. There's a bullet in a car door and a bullet in someone's leg. Different charges? Or same?

Consequences, not charges.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Consequences, not charges.

Ok. So what consequences are we discussing? Civil court, it will be different.

 

[Coach]

I disagree. You don't control the ultimate outcome, you only control your own actions. Let's say you and I are ignorant jackwads and we set up some tin cans on a fence post to shoot at and don't notice the camp site out in the field. We both take a shot. There's a bullet in a car door and a bullet in someone's leg. Different charges? Or same?



Why a hypothetical instance here? An FBI agent dropped his gun. By itself not big deal. He/She should be able to pick it up and reholster without shooting someone. An FBI agent doing a back flip on the dance floor and dropping his gun is a bigger bone head mistake. Should not happen. Professional is the reason why. Higher standard and higher expectations than John Q Public.

How can anyone have confidence in this guy in the future? Not talking about criminal charges but getting fired. That should happen.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Why a hypothetical instance here?

I've addressed the actual incident multiple times earlier in the thread, and the hypothetical was strictly to address Rhino's statement about outcomes affecting consequences.

How can anyone have confidence in this guy in the future? Not talking about criminal charges but getting fired. That should happen.

As far as firing, already addressed. Confidence? If the guy is not otherwise a goof and learned from this, I've no issue with him any more than I have an issue with Massad Ayoob for having an ND when he should, and does, know better or someone who caused a traffic crash that broke someone's leg. I don't expect anyone, from my doctor to my co-workers, to be infallible. If this is just the most recent in a string of bad decisions, then that's a different issue. Folks I've talked to with the same badge as him seem to think he won't keep his job, though.

 

[Coach]

I find it unacceptable that any FBI agent cannot pick up a dropped gun without it going off and shooting someone. Don't need any other reason for him to have to find another line of work. Should not take much thought or investigation for that to happen. I don't want this guy around my family doing his job. Him keeping his job raises serious questions about the FBI.

Reminds of the statement from Jeff Cooper. Something along the lines of, show me a police department without bullet holes in it and I will show you a building that has not been dedicated.

Accepting the ND/AD thing as something that can happen allows it to keep happening. The four or five rounds that have been fired in the showroom at Point Blank in Carmel should not happen either. The word does not seem to get out or be a problem for them.

A few summers ago I had my daughter at the Area 5 shooting camp in Ohio. One of the dad's was talking to a Grand Master that was teaching at the camp. The dad was talking about ND that he recently had in practice. He said something like, if you shoot enough that is going to happen once in a while. The GM stopped him cold, and said no that is not right. You handle the gun right and it does not happen. I have shot for 25 years and it has not happened. I think this is more of the attitude that we all need to foster.

 

[IndyTom]

The ones I looked at on theit site have no retention at all.

I'm guessing they don't make a "Professional" model for whatever model you looked for, but here are examples for the P365 (they make a number of others): https://n82tactical.com/product/professional-sig-p365/ and https://n82tactical.com/product/pro-tandem-sig-p365/

Unless I'm misinterpreting SOB holster and it isn't intended to be IWB.

 

[2A_Tom]

I'm guessing they don't make a "Professional" model for whatever model you looked for, but here are examples for the P365 (they make a number of others): https://n82tactical.com/product/professional-sig-p365/ and https://n82tactical.com/product/pro-tandem-sig-p365/

Unless I'm misinterpreting SOB holster and it isn't intended to be IWB.

Those do seem to have positive retention. Tucked Small of Back they would be very difficult to draw, at least for me.

 

[Coach]

This was not a hardware problem. It was a software problem.

 

[IndyTom]

Those do seem to have positive retention. Tucked Small of Back they would be very difficult to draw, at least for me.

Just takes a little practice to get the twist down. Drive thumb in, press palm towards body/grasp and pull.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Wow! I've been absent from INGO a long time! Things I am digesting after reading the entirety of this thread;

1, BBI's points out, and I should have known for myself but honestly had never considered, you should never grab for a falling gun! Yes. I can see that. That police training is so extensive as to include this truly amazes me. BBI's sheds light on life as a police officer in a consistent and straightforward way. BBI's drops his little bricks of knowledge for me to trip over for myself without visible authoritarian attitude.

2, Incredibly thoughtless and recklessness behavior without any indication whatsoever of intent equals criminal charges rather than civil liability? WTF? Say what? Really?

3, Kirk Freeman has become the butt of INGO's famous vitriol? HUH? What chance in hell do I have then? I thought he was considered one of the adults in the room. Hmmmm......... Perhaps at least partially why I have been scarce around here.

4, What gun was involved? Shall I risk joining Kirk in the department of blanket statements and suggest it was a Glock? It's ALWAYS a Glock! Well..... OK not always but it sure seems to me that Glocks with that funky slick non-staging trigger pull are involved in a lot of ND's. A learning curve for Glocks. A trigger so good you will shoot your self! Yes, trigger discipline will mitigate this.