FBI agent negligent shooting

[ghuns]

He should have been following the 5 rules of safe gun handling.

And the one rule of safe dancing; under no circumstances should a grown arsed white man be seen dancing in public unless he's 6 beers deep into a wedding reception or he's named Justin Timberlake.

 

[jamil]

I low carb. So:

Okay. Substitute approved. Carry on.

 

[rhino]

He should have been following the 5 rules of safe gun handling.

I see what did. There, in that message I quoted.

 

[rhino]

Were such gambling shenanigans legal in Indiana, I might wager cash, folding money that the soon-to-be-former FBI agent does not claim that he thought the gun was unloaded as part of his defense.

 

[jamil]

Were such gambling shenanigans legal in Indiana, I might wager cash, folding money that the soon-to-be-former FBI agent does not claim that he thought the gun was unloaded as part of his defense.

I'm not a betting man, but I'd bet a dollar he's not going to claim he thought the gun was unloaded.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have heard time and time and time again through the chicken wire reinforced glass over the last 24 years, "eet ain't low-dead". Over and over.

So, people trying to avoid criminal responsibility are claiming the fault lies with someone other than themselves, namely the inanimate firearm, and they had no criminal intent to shoot someone? Well, that's shocking. If that's what you are basing your gun safety shtick on, it's no wonder you're so far remove from reality. Those poor little darlings you're trying to help get out from behind that chicken wire are (and I'll give you a second to sit down before continuing) lying to you. See, they knew it was loaded and they didn't care. Now they realize they are on a big boy time out, and they need to spin some way for you to get them out of that time out.

Talking to people who've had an actual unintended discharge that resulted in a bullet striking a human being, the 'I thought it was unloaded' *very* seldom comes up, and normally in the context of reversing the clearing steps on a semi-auto that requires a trigger pull to break down. Rack the slide, drop the mag, pull the trigger, unintended discharge results, often into their off hand or thigh, sometimes both. People who shoot themselves holstering? They don't pretend to believe it's unloaded. Pocket carry discharges? I've yet to hear "I thought it was unloaded". Left a 'stash gun' where a kid could find it? Not once. Dropped it and tried to play catch, got it caught on something, or it just was a POS that wasn't drop safe? Nope, not once. I only hear the Freeman Shtick routinely on INGO, and only from you. Even the people who reverse the clearing steps usually are quite up front of where they made their mistake. "I was complacent" , "I was watching tv cleaning a bunch of guns and wasn't paying attention" , "I'm a dumb a-- who's been doing this for fifty years and I know better" are all things I've heard a lot more than any claim to believe a gun was unloaded.

 

[KLB]

I low carb. So:

I'll take some!

 

[Coach]

[FONT=&amp]I have been watching this exchange here with mild interest. I am conflicted. I think Kirk can be overboard, but who here can't. But I also feel that I have heard the I did not know it was loaded in a number of newspaper and radio reports over the years on unintentional shootings. I did a search and just went to the first source. Found one. With news reports you never know if it was quoted or added to the story by the reporter.


In a large metropolitan area in the southern United States, two brothers were playing in their home with two friends while the boys' parents were at work. Initially, they played in the boys' bedroom using the bunk beds and bedspreads to build "forts"; they also engaged in gun play using plastic toy guns. Later, they divided into two teams to play hide-and-seek. One of the boys, a 13-year-old, hid in his parents' bedroom where he found his father's 12-gauge shotgun stored under the bed. The shotgun was kept in the house for protection; the boy did not know it was loaded. When his friend, also aged 13 years, entered the room looking for him, the boy who was hiding inadvertently discharged the gun, killing his friend. Analysis of National Mortality Data

[/FONT]https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00017018.htm

 

[ATM]

...the boy did not know it was loaded...

The boy also did not know if it was unloaded.

But, it seems the boy did likely pull the trigger while the gun was pointed at his friend, and both of those actions (the actual violations of safe gun handling) should be the featured points of instruction and correction.

Even if he had tried claiming after the fact that he believed it was unloaded, that wouldn't change anything and the typical speech impediment response would still seem out of place here in a gun owners discussion forum.

 

[Coach]

I think the use of that phrase is always often present in news reports because the honest answer seems unacceptable. It is a cop out. Proper gun handling prevents the tragedy.

Loaded or not treat them as though they are loaded.

 

[ATM]

I think the use of that phrase is always often present in news reports because the honest answer seems unacceptable. It is a cop out. Proper gun handling prevents the tragedy.

Agreed. Addressing the cop out rather than drawing the focus more properly onto the real correctable points just seems silly to me.

Loaded or not treat them as though they are loaded.

How about, ALWAYS handle them safely? The opposite of safely is unsafely, not 'as though they are unloaded', right?

 

[Benp]

So when grabbing a gun on the floor you DON'T want to squeeze the trigger? This is the opposite of what your instincts would tell you to do because that trigger was made for the finger.

 

[jamil]

So when grabbing a gun on the floor you DON'T want to squeeze the trigger? This is the opposite of what your instincts would tell you to do because that trigger was made for the finger.

It makes a handy place to grab the gun, especially when you're in a hurry...like when you've just pulled off a dance move which caused your gun to fly out of its holster, and you need to pick it up off the floor before too many people notice.

 

[dusty88]

[FONT=&amp]I have been watching this exchange here with mild interest. I am conflicted. I think Kirk can be overboard, but who here can't. But I also feel that I have heard the I did not know it was loaded in a number of newspaper and radio reports over the years on unintentional shootings. I did a search and just went to the first source. Found one. With news reports you never know if it was quoted or added to the story by the reporter.


In a large metropolitan area in the southern United States, two brothers were playing in their home with two friends while the boys' parents were at work. Initially, they played in the boys' bedroom using the bunk beds and bedspreads to build "forts"; they also engaged in gun play using plastic toy guns. Later, they divided into two teams to play hide-and-seek. One of the boys, a 13-year-old, hid in his parents' bedroom where he found his father's 12-gauge shotgun stored under the bed. The shotgun was kept in the house for protection; the boy did not know it was loaded. When his friend, also aged 13 years, entered the room looking for him, the boy who was hiding inadvertently discharged the gun, killing his friend. Analysis of National Mortality Data

[/FONT]https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00017018.htm

While I agree the 13 yr old should have been taught to treat the gun as loaded, that is a very different scenario. A 13 yr old didn't know his dad's gun was loaded. An FBI agent carrying a concealed handgun didn't know it was loaded? That's about as logical as a person claiming they got in a car accident because they didn't think there was gas in the car.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

While I agree the 13 yr old should have been taught to treat the gun as loaded, that is a very different scenario. A 13 yr old didn't know his dad's gun was loaded. An FBI agent carrying a concealed handgun didn't know it was loaded? That's about as logical as a person claiming they got in a car accident because they didn't think there was gas in the car.

The response is always "it wasn't loaded". Always. Firearm or taser, I didn't know it was loaded whether you shoot a fellow dancer with a bullet or a Lafayette Police Dispatcher with a taser.

https://www.jconline.com/story/news...inappropriate-text-messages-victim/695823002/

 

[KLB]

You remind me of my granddaughter who always holds onto her opinion even when proof is given that she is wrong about something.

Hyperbole gets one nowhere.

 

[rhino]

The response is always "it wasn't loaded". Always. Firearm or taser, I didn't know it was loaded whether you shoot a fellow dancer with a bullet or a Lafayette Police Dispatcher with a taser.

https://www.jconline.com/story/news...inappropriate-text-messages-victim/695823002/

[h=1]Lafayette police officer disciplined for inappropriate text messages with victim[/h]

I didn't see anything about guns in that article, much less a claim that someone thought it wasn't loaded?

 

[IndyTom]

I didn't see anything about guns in that article, much less a claim that someone thought it wasn't loaded?

I didn't see "it wasn't loaded," but I did see him getting suspended for tasering a co-worker:

Sells had been suspended for five days for accidentally shooting a taser into a co-worker while horseplaying.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I didn't see anything about guns in that article, much less a claim that someone thought it wasn't loaded?

I'll see if I can scan it and post it, but he and another LPD cop were pointing "unloaded" tasers at a dispatcher. Stop to fix nose bleed. Returns to continue pointing taser, taser magically discharges into dispatcher. "It wasn't loaded".

Paper was fixated on the sex and did not report the taser incident.

 

[Coach]

Agreed. Addressing the cop out rather than drawing the focus more properly onto the real correctable points just seems silly to me.



How about, ALWAYS handle them safely? The opposite of safely is unsafely, not 'as though they are unloaded', right?

I am not sure safely gets us there. I am not sure loaded gets us there. There is a lot of interpretation that goes into either safely or loaded.

I think either word means keep the finger off the trigger, the muzzle off of people. I think many knowledgeable people will do those things. Many gun people do not do those things. But yet think they are safe. It is amazing how the Four rules of gun safety will be successful.

A big problem I see at the range, in classes and so forth is people have two sets of rules for handling guns. Unloaded gun handling rules and loaded gun handling rules. That is a big flaw. Handling a loaded gun safely is what is needed, and just assuming that all guns are loaded is a good place to begin.

When I started these Carry gun matches and ran them as a hot range we have had fewer problems and issues that matches with Cold ranges. The guns are loaded and are expected to stay that way and to stay in the holster until on the line. It has removed the temptation to relax a bit because the gun is not loaded and therefore the danger is past.