Fear of non-external safety

[gunman41mag]

Off topic a tick, but how do you like the CZ-75? I've never had the opportunity to pick one up. I do have a CZ-52, but that's a whole other thread entirely...

The CZ-75 is an excellent double-action 9MM, I have one in my glove box, & I like the cock-n-lock feature

 

[Larryjr]

It seems to me Que said it best "to each his own". There are so many factors that can cause a person to think a particular way. I too used to carry a weapon with a safety but through reading, practicing and thinking about different situations I might find myself in, I have went the route of no external safety and don't think I would ever change my mind.

 

[vxtip]

Well I haven't seen anyone mention it but guns that lack external safeties can go off if something presses the trigger. People have reholstered their guns and had something get into the trigger guard within the holster and fired the gun. It's a real concern to be aware of when holstering a firearm, particularly one without a safety.

I think a Guy on arfcom designed a part that replaces the backplate on the glock slide that you can press on while holstering which locks the firing pin.

Glock Leg: Urban Dictionary: Glock leg

 

[kingnereli]

I went shooting today with my brothers and a couple other guys. And we all got into a discussion of carrying.

They all are pretty much on agreement that carrying a gun with no external safety, or whatever you call it, like a Glock, is the dumbest and unsafest thing to do.

I can never understand why people fear carrying a gun this way.

Rather than a fear it's a realization that it is unsafe and irresponsible to carry a gun with a relatively light, short trigger pull such as a single action or striker fired semi-auto without a safety present.

Would they ever carry a revolver with all chambers loaded?

Methinks they either just don't understand the system, or are afraid of their own lack of gun safety. Either way, the situation should be rectified.

The revolver argument is a straw man. Revolvers have much longer and stiffer triggers than most semi-autos. The ubiquitous brain fart isn't going to set them off. That's the thing about gun safety. No matter how safety conscious we are I've never met anyone who is beyond making a very brief mistake that can have terrible consequences. The safety between our ears is not as reliable as jamming a chunk of metal in the path of a moving part.

To each his own, but I think if you asked them why they believe an external safety is safer, they will reveal a distrust in their ability to properly deploy the weapon in a heated situation and hurt themselves or someone else.

That's funny. That's the usual argument from people, including some in this thread, that won't have a safety on their carry gun.

I already knew they weren't right in the head when they said the Beretta 92FS is a much better gun than the Glock 19 and 17.

There aren't too many guns that aren't better than the glock 19 or 17.

I won't carry a gun with an external safety, personally. Safety's are a false sense of security and if you don't treat a carry weapon like it can go off at any moment with a bad decision, you shouldn't carry. Just my $0.02.

(edit) And of course, my consistent edit... No offense to those who carry weapons with safeties who are safe regardless..

The vast majority of my "gun friends", people I shoot with and people I know that carry use safety equipped or double action semi-autos. None of them, nor anyone I have met who carries in such a way thinks they can handle a gun in any manner they wish simply because there is a safety engaged. That would be a false sense of security. In reality, people who insist on having a safety know it is a necessary layer of safety. It's finger off the trigger, muzzle in a safe direction and the safety engaged until it's time to fire.

I will not carry a gun WITH an external safety Forgetting to flip off the safety in a stressful situation...could get me killed. None of my handguns have an external safety.

Draw, aim, shoot...doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

This safety debate has came up several times recently here on INGO. Every time it has these same non-arguments have been presented. When it is I'm confident that the person presenting it has spent very little time, if any at all, actually training with a safety equipped semi-auto. Using a safety is a training issue. Yes, it's a fine motor skill. So is pulling the trigger and hitting the mag release. For your argument to be logically consistent you would have to say that you might forget or fumble with the other controls on the pistol as well.

Secondly, a safety doesn't complicate weapons manipulation. It's a fundamental part of the draw. it is not as if the shooter has to draw the weapon, reach up and try to find and flip the safety, acquire the target and fire. It's part of the draw. There is a technique called the "high thumb" draw that is essentially fool proof with frame mounted safeties. Some safeties are more ergonomic than others but I have yet to find one this particular draw did not work with. I know this because I have trained with safety equipped pistol rather than theorizing on what might happen if I were to carry a pistol that is no more complicated than a toaster.

 

[Roadie]

I used to carry with an empty chamber, then I saw the vid of the jewelry store owner killed while fumbling with racking the slide..

I carried one in the chamber, safety on, until I took an 8 hour handgun class and got tired of dealing with the safety (and the resulting blister)..

Then I decided if I was going to leave the safety off, why not buy a gun without a manual safety..

 

[MrSmitty]

I like my p-11 the firing pin is under no stress til you pull the trigger all the way, there is no striker under tension. I got used to carrying with no thumb safety, with a XD-9...yes I know it has the grip safety, but that, to me, gave me an extra bit of confidence in the gun, grip the gun safety off, release the grip...safety on

 

[jdhaines]

Signature...

 

[U.S. Patriot]

As long as you use a good holster, and keep your finger outside the trigger guard unless you tend on pulling the trigger. Then there is nothing unsafe about it. I carried an Xd for a while. However, personaly I prefer carrying with the hammer down, or DAO only.

 

[christman]

My Glock makes me feel safe when its pulled. But then again, my finger knows its place. Or else! *shakes fist*

 

[duffman0286]

You're not worried that you'll forget to pull the trigger? I've never understood why people are completely confident that they'll instinctively remember THAT finger twitch, but not that they'll remember the other one. If you've trained properly, the two actions should be equally ingrained and instinctive.

If properly trained you shouldnt need a safety is my view, thats why i carry a glock 19

 

[iChokePeople]

If properly trade you shouldnt need a safety is my view thats why i carry a glock 19

This statement amuses me on several levels... but still wasn't my point. I sometimes carry handguns without external safeties, and am not against them. I'm just pointing out what I believe is a completely illogical common argument against an external safety. I say carry whatever works for you, whether that's an M4 or a rock and a stick, but I have to laugh at people who are 100% convinced that they won't forget to twitch their INDEX finger (along with all of the other movements that go into aiming and firing a handgun), but are afraid they'll forget to twitch their THUMB (or some other finger that operates the external safety.)

 

[BIGE7.62]

I started out CC'ing a 1911, now I CC a Glock .My thumb still runs down the slide i.e. disengaging the safety .
What I'm trying to say is TRAIN,TRAIN,TRAIN ,with what ever you shot, make it second nature to bring it into action. Just my

 

[duffman0286]

This statement amuses me on several levels... but still wasn't my point. I sometimes carry handguns without external safeties, and am not against them. I'm just pointing out what I believe is a completely illogical common argument against an external safety. I say carry whatever works for you, whether that's an M4 or a rock and a stick, but I have to laugh at people who are 100% convinced that they won't forget to twitch their INDEX finger (along with all of the other movements that go into aiming and firing a handgun), but are afraid they'll forget to twitch their THUMB (or some other finger that operates the external safety.)

No the point is i bet i can get round down range (safely of course) much faster if there is no need to flip a safety. all this does is add time to a drawl if i disengage a safety plus induce panic you have larger room for error. Plus a agree with those that have stated before safeties give a false sense of security i dont know how many times i have heard a discharge and they state that they thought the safety was on. It doesnt matter your experience around firearms you guys that trust your safety's over your own actions are the one that scare me the most.

 

[thompal]

This statement amuses me on several levels... but still wasn't my point. I sometimes carry handguns without external safeties, and am not against them. I'm just pointing out what I believe is a completely illogical common argument against an external safety. I say carry whatever works for you, whether that's an M4 or a rock and a stick, but I have to laugh at people who are 100% convinced that they won't forget to twitch their INDEX finger (along with all of the other movements that go into aiming and firing a handgun), but are afraid they'll forget to twitch their THUMB (or some other finger that operates the external safety.)

It's all a training issue, or more correctly, a lack thereof.

It's becoming apparent that the safety-haters don't feel comfortable with "having to remember to flick the safety off." They are also apparently convinced that the steps involved to fire a safety-equipped handgun are:
1) Draw
2) Bring pistol on target
3) Visually find safety
4) Bring other hand up to find safety
5) Disengage safety
6) re-acquire target visually
7) Fire

This shows an obvious lack of training, and/or a naive willingness to believe certain marketing slogans and strategies by a certain firm who wishes to sell handguns to agencies based on how little training is needed to operate them.

In that regard, they are correct. A safety-less handgun is a firearm that I would recommend to my grandmother. Someone who is NEVER going to train, and who has no interest in becoming proficient with the OPERATION of a handgun.

I see it as kind of analogous to a clutch on a car. They aren't difficult, were used without question by everyone for 80 years or so. But now, there are entire populations who have no idea how to shift a manual transmission, and since they have no training or experience, claim that they are cumbersome, slow to shift, and prone to human forgetfulness.

It does all come down to training. Someone who doesn't want to train or learn all phases of operation of their handgun shouldn't be expected to "remember" anything more than they have to, just as someone who doesn't want to spend time practicing or training driving should use an automatic transmission, because they will miss shifts, or shift at the wrong time, because they aren't used to it.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

How many of you that carry platforms like the 1911, etc. Have actually had to draw and defend yourselves? Training is important. However, under stress, some do not react the same as in training. When you are just simply putting holes in paper. There is no stress. So, unless you train regularly, drawing and disengaging the safety and firing. There is no guarantee that you will when the adrenaline dumps. Carry a platform that you are comfortbale with. However, to me, it's one less thing to worry about. Not having a manual safety.

 

[kingnereli]

No the point is i bet i can get round down range (safely of course) much faster if there is no need to flip a safety.

Is this bet before or after you've done the necessary training to become proficient with a safe weapon?

all this does is add time to a drawl if i disengage a safety plus induce panic you have larger room for error.

If you had trained any with a safety equipped firearm you would know that disengaging that safety is part of the draw rather than an additional step.

Plus a agree with those that have stated before safeties give a false sense of security i dont know how many times i have heard a discharge and they state that they thought the safety was on.

I guess you'll have to define "false sense of security." I've never seen it. I answered this argument in an earlier post. Did you actually read the whole thread? No one is claiming that a safety rids the equation of human error. The problem is that a pistol without a safety allows more room for human error as well as scenarios where the discharge was genuinely accidental such as a jacket's pull cord getting caught in the trigger guard.

It doesnt matter your experience around firearms you guys that trust your safety's over your own actions are the one that scare me the most.

You really need to try to grasp the concept of safety in layers. You should be scared of the people who think they can't screw up. It doesn't matter what your experience with firearms you can become too lax or too comfortable and shoot yourself or someone else. It's simply wise and responsible to put as many layers of safety as will not hinder the deployment and operation of the firerm in between yourself and that event as possible.

 

[foszoe]

To each his own, but I think if you asked them why they believe an external safety is safer, they will reveal a distrust in their ability to properly deploy the weapon in a heated situation and hurt themselves or someone else.

???

To each is own but....

That is not my definition of to each his own

Maybe its a matter of practice, but on my Beretta's, by the time i clear the holster and bring to to bear on a target, I have more than enough time to flip the external safety. I am more worried about the person that thinks they can deploy in a heated situation and because of that belief considers themselves superior to the rest of the gun toters (those of us on the other end of the "but") than the person that actually has and in the internet world, most think much higher of their degree of coolness under stress than I do. But

to each his own

 

[BarryJaxon]

Every time I go for my CZ-75 or 1911, my thumb is all ready resting on the safety

What he said!

 

[IndyMedic]

I would say it is probably a feel of discomfort of having a loaded gun with no "safety" on there hip.

I am pretty new with carrying a gun. When I was buying my first gun a mechanical safety was a big decision for me. My S&W does not have a safety. When I started carrying I was a little apprehensive at first in fact I carried with an empty chamber for a while until I realized that nothing was going to happen unless I made it happen. Now Its just a normal thing to wear a loaded gun.

Just be smart.

 

[Fordtough25]

Practice practice practice. It doesn't bother me, but I go back and forth from a Glock to a 1911 ,Beretta 92fs or even a Ruger Blackhawk. If you know what you are doing and are practiced in drawing said firearm any should work great.