I don't understand mag dumps

[Slow Hand]

Supressive fire!

Also I got tired of turning my head to see that.

View attachment 303537

Thanks. I have no idea why about 25% of the pics I load on here turn 90°…

 

[indyblue]

Thanks. I have no idea why about 25% of the pics I load on here turn 90°…

If you take pics with a phone they are auto rotated when viewed on a phone. There is meta-data in the pic about orientation that PCs websites may not be able to handle. You may need to upload to a PC and edit/rotate to permanently change the rotation.

I use Linux as my OS and the image editor GIMP (Gnu Image Manipulation Program) that detects orientation and offers to fix it for me when opened. I believe most other photo editing programs on windows has the feature as well, but I couldn't tell you how to utilize it.

 

[BravoOneFour]

Let say this is true (I have my doubts as across the board stats are flawed. Wars are won by a combination of assets)

That said There is a stark HUGE difference between a Military offensive operation and someone just going about their day in town and having a 1 or 2 bad guy in a legal shoot scenarios

If you go through a whole mag I want to read your statement to the police because you’re gonna be famous.

If you go through a mag and reload and go through more rounds you’ll be mentioned in case law more than likely!

1. 2 to the chest, 1 the head head is not a full mag, so I don't know where you're getting that idea.
2. I never said anything about a day to day situation. You're mindset is seams restricted to self defense and not a SHTF or open warfare situation, others are not restricted to that mindset.
3. Winning a war and winning a single conflict is not the same thing.

There's a reason we standardized the 5.56 and went away from battle rifles in heavy calibers. And it's for the same reason that the front line guys aren't thrilled about us switching over to the new SIG rifle.

With my current 5.56 set up I carry roughly 12 mags plus one in the gun, which comes out to 390 rounds. A loaded P mag weighs roughly 1.095lbs. So just over 14 pounds for almost 400 rounds of sustainment.

Prior to this, I ran a g3 in 308. a 20 round 308 mag weighs roughly 1.65lbs, plus they are obviously bulkier than a satang. so carrying 12 plus 1 magazines meant I was carrying 21.5lbs in ammo and only had 260 rounds. So significantly heavier and less capacity.

Now the standard patrol combat loadout is 210 rounds. But that's when you have a supply chain feeding you as needed. In a SHTF situation, you're on your own, so you should have significantly more.

All that said. If your mindset is just for home defense, and you have no desire to train or equip for more in depth situation, I could somewhat see the appeal you have to heavier calibers. But personally I will always take capacity over a larger round.

 

[Creedmoor]

1. 2 to the chest, 1 the head head is not a full mag, so I don't know where you're getting that idea.
2. I never said anything about a day to day situation. You're mindset is seams restricted to self defense and not a SHTF or open warfare situation, others are not restricted to that mindset.
3. Winning a war and winning a single conflict is not the same thing.

There's a reason we standardized the 5.56 and went away from battle rifles in heavy calibers. And it's for the same reason that the front line guys aren't thrilled about us switching over to the new SIG rifle.

With my current 5.56 set up I carry roughly 12 mags plus one in the gun, which comes out to 390 rounds. A loaded P mag weighs roughly 1.095lbs. So just over 14 pounds for almost 400 rounds of sustainment.

Prior to this, I ran a g3 in 308. a 20 round 308 mag weighs roughly 1.65lbs, plus they are obviously bulkier than a satang. so carrying 12 plus 1 magazines meant I was carrying 21.5lbs in ammo and only had 260 rounds. So significantly heavier and less capacity.

Now the standard patrol combat loadout is 210 rounds. But that's when you have a supply chain feeding you as needed. In a SHTF situation, you're on your own, so you should have significantly more.

All that said. If your mindset is just for home defense, and you have no desire to train or equip for more in depth situation, I could somewhat see the appeal you have to heavier calibers. But personally I will always take capacity over a larger round.

One has to win conflicts before one can win the war.
My Thing 1 has been issued a M27 service rifle, he gave up a M14.
Hes had a few deployments now, Wanna guess which one he would rather have?

 

[ECS686]

1. 2 to the chest, 1 the head head is not a full mag, so I don't know where you're getting that idea.
2. I never said anything about a day to day situation. You're mindset is seams restricted to self defense and not a SHTF or open warfare situation, others are not restricted to that mindset.
3. Winning a war and winning a single conflict is not the same thing.

There's a reason we standardized the 5.56 and went away from battle rifles in heavy calibers. And it's for the same reason that the front line guys aren't thrilled about us switching over to the new SIG rifle.

With my current 5.56 set up I carry roughly 12 mags plus one in the gun, which comes out to 390 rounds. A loaded P mag weighs roughly 1.095lbs. So just over 14 pounds for almost 400 rounds of sustainment.

Prior to this, I ran a g3 in 308. a 20 round 308 mag weighs roughly 1.65lbs, plus they are obviously bulkier than a satang. so carrying 12 plus 1 magazines meant I was carrying 21.5lbs in ammo and only had 260 rounds. So significantly heavier and less capacity.

Now the standard patrol combat loadout is 210 rounds. But that's when you have a supply chain feeding you as needed. In a SHTF situation, you're on your own, so you should have significantly more.

All that said. If your mindset is just for home defense, and you have no desire to train or equip for more in depth situation, I could somewhat see the appeal you have to heavier calibers. But personally I will always take capacity over a larger round.

Again respectfully I have some 3 tours e overseas and have been in several use of force encounters with my stateside LE career to include using less lethals on more people than I care to remember and seeing more blunt force trama and shooting aftermaths than I care to remember.

That said not sure what you do for a “career” but my retired life is teaching some personal defense classes and doing a lot of Range Master instructor courses to help out my own classes as well as my ILEA instructor game. I also work part time as a School Protection Officer as a Special Deputy.

All that said if you want to run around in full kit and plan for whatever that’s your choice. Myself I’m just past that and into probabilities (doesn’t mean I don’t have a couple ARs set up I just don’t fixate in them)

Also not saying anything is wrong with your deal it’s just not mine. Been there done that like I said. I have also been in the hot seat as a witness court and also testified in Federal Inquiries on myself several times.

So yes these days it is for me (as my friend Darryl Bolke says from Pat Rogers) it’s more about normal earth people stuff.

Again respectfully conversing.

 

[JTKelly]

I just watched a video of a guy that evaluated a AR 15 versus a M1A on the basis of how accurately he could shoot them while doing a mag dump at 20 yards.

I can understand a controlled pair or even three for each rifle. I don't understand the need to empty your magazine into the body of just one assailant .

I have considered myself a rifleman for well over 50 years. That means precision fire out to 500 yards. A round fired every 4-5 seconds.

Please educate me. What is the purpose of a mag dump besides burning up all your ammunition? I really want to know.

It is to help you evaluate the value of every other piece of advice that person ever gave you or ever will in the future.

 

[kingnereli]

Respectfully, EVERYONE will have an issue if they go cyclic compared to a 3 or 4 shot string. People get way to wrapped around the axels on a multi shot sting. It’s physics and fatigue.

The control and target assessment (is that 2nd 3rd or 4th shot LEGAL and or WARRANTED) if just fine at a .05 or 1/2 second split rather than cyclic LAPD Meteor (aka the gunfighters) have that standard.

That's false. Training longer strings negates that inconsistency. That's the point. You're not doing a 2.0-2.5 second bill drill if the gun gets away from you on longer strings. It's a good skill to have, especially for competition shooting, but it certainly has self defense application.

 

[ECS686]

That's false. Training longer strings negates that inconsistency. That's the point. You're not doing a 2.0-2.5 second bill drill if the gun gets away from you on longer strings. It's a good skill to have, especially for competition shooting, but it certainly has self defense application.

We’ll just respectfully disagree. I base my observation from experience teaching at FLETC training SORT teams with all day firing range training once a month and attending Range Master Instructor classes as well as Dave Spaulding’s Essential Pistol and Lee Weems Trigger Management, Bolke HITs and Jearns Taxtical Anatomy.

I have seen first hand ballistic masterbation leads to poorer performant.

You will get more by shooting and practicing with 50 rounds a week doing drills from Justin Dyal and others then you will 200 rounds at one time.

 

[kingnereli]

We’ll just respectfully disagree. I base my observation from experience teaching at FLETC training SORT teams with all day firing range training once a month and attending Range Master Instructor classes as well as Dave Spaulding’s Essential Pistol and Lee Weems Trigger Management, Bolke HITs and Jearns Taxtical Anatomy.

I have seen first hand ballistic masterbation leads to poorer performant.

You will get more by shooting and practicing with 50 rounds a week doing drills from Justin Dyal and others then you will 200 rounds at one time.

We can disagree, but you're demonstrably wrong, and likely missing a very important component in your shooting.

 

[ECS686]

We can disagree, but you're demonstrably wrong, and likely missing a very important component in your shooting.

I shared my experience and background. that said I’m completely open to hearing “your” experience on why you disagree!

 

[kingnereli]

I shared my experience and background. that said I’m completely open to hearing “your” experience on why you disagree!

Yes, I saw the authority fallacy. I disagree because it's a demonstrable skill. Would you like to compare Bill drills? Where do you shoot matches?

 

[bwframe]

 

[BigNyaKelly]

I like doing mag dumps when it feels like I'm about ready to go home from a range - and some guns are more fun for that than others, but I wouldn't call it useful for anything other than putting a bit of a smile on your face.

 

[ECS686]

Yes, I saw the authority fallacy. I disagree because it's a demonstrable skill. Would you like to compare Bill drills? Where do you shoot matches?

Authority fallacy LOL if I had that I would not still attend classes and and
Continue to learn. Simply sharing where I have attended and worked where I’ve been exposed to a pretty good cross section of skills of shooters. And variety of instructors to base my outlook on.

As far as matches Mostly at Riley these days. In the past Wildcat.

 

[cedartop]

Authority fallacy LOL if I had that I would not still attend classes and and
Continue to learn. Simply sharing where I have attended and worked where I’ve been exposed to a pretty good cross section of skills of shooters. And variety of instructors to base my outlook on.

As far as matches Mostly at Riley these days. In the past Wildcat.

I think he meant what is called an appeal to authority.

 

[kingnereli]

Authority fallacy LOL if I had that I would not still attend classes and and
Continue to learn. Simply sharing where I have attended and worked where I’ve been exposed to a pretty good cross section of skills of shooters. And variety of instructors to base my outlook on.

As far as matches Mostly at Riley these days. In the past Wildcat.

Yes, your authority fallacy. Rather than relying on demonstrable facts, you leaned on your role as a trainer and student. It means nothing.

What's your typical bill drill time?

 

[bwframe]

I can see right now that I need to drag out the timer and run some Bill drills?

I guess I never thought of a Bill drill as a mag dump though? Maybe it's just semantics, but doesn't the term "mag dump" refer to the effort of shooting specifically to empty the magazine VS shooting focused on the results of the shooting until the magazine is empty?

In other words, a "mag dump" is shooting for the noise VS shooting fast for score, until you are empty?

 

[Creedmoor]

I have seen first hand ballistic masturbation leads to poorer performant.

Three round burst was introduced for a reason.

I'm stealing that line.

 

[ECS686]

Yes, your authority fallacy. Rather than relying on demonstrable facts, you leaned on your role as a trainer and student. It means nothing.

What's your typical bill drill time?

Not sure what that has to do with anything but Cold or after playing all day?
I’ve ran a Bill Drill in 2.01 and I run a casino drill with a 9mm around 12-13 seconds with a 7,7.7 mag set up. Around 15-16 with my HK 45LEM duty gun

That’s cold times.

And even cold times there’s a difference when you know deill X or atave 1 your shooting X number of rounds. That’s great on the technical shooting but not so much the assessment shooting.

Perhaps I didn’t articulate my prior comments as well as o could have. As far as demonstrable facts while running drills are a good practice they are only part of it. The asset part is often overlooked. If one is k to USPSA John Wick fast gun running that’s great but not the ral world. It’s a balance of shifting gears. Try courses where you have to decide on the fly if you so need to shoot and more importantly when you need to stop shootings. LAPD SWAT standards are 1/2 second splits and that’s about as fast as most mortals and about a .35 for the top toro assess and make legal decisions.

That’s my realm i deal with not paper sub second draws and such!

 

[Trapper Jim]

Drills are good for evals but predictive shooting is nothing like reactive shooting. Movers, swingers, bowling pins, stress etc are the finishing touch to skill set.

And don’t forget, when you are shooting, working a counter, making a promotional video training or anything else where casual gun owners can observe your handling, your authority fallacy bleeds onto them.