Idiot with gun = shot employee.

[bocefus78]

Off the pay topic a bit, but I'll briefly describe my first trip in there:

3 days after grand opening, I went in to kill my lunch break and check out the place. I wanted to handle the g43.
I walked in, guy was friendly as could be. I asked to see the g43. Now for the kicker. He had a broken hand in a cast. He couldn't check for clear. He handed it to me and says "can you check that for me".
Yep. Stoopid. I did so, looked at it, and promptly left. Havent been back and doubt I will.

Surely there was something else he could do. They weren't busy.

 

[JollyMon]

Off the pay topic a bit, but I'll briefly describe my first trip in there:

3 days after grand opening, I went in to kill my lunch break and check out the place. I wanted to handle the g43.
I walked in, guy was friendly as could be. I asked to see the g43. Now for the kicker. He had a broken hand in a cast. He couldn't check for clear. He handed it to me and says "can you check that for me".
Yep. Stoopid. I did so, looked at it, and promptly left. Havent been back and doubt I will.

and that is bad that he asked you to check for a clear? As long as he wasn't sweeping you with it, what's the problem? Guess you have problem with holding doors open for handicaps too.

maybe it's just me, if someone is trying to be safe and has a handicap, I don't treat that as an a reason to never visit a store again

 

[NHT3]

He's a good kid....er, man. No he won't settle in there, but hopefully I've impressed upon him the importance of doing your best regardless of the pay. It shows who you are, and that's important.

Maybe $9/hr won't buy anyone the brightest and hardest charging 40 year old, though I would argue that if you take the job, you owe top notch effort. However, most places it will buy an intelligent, motivated early 20 something or a reliable retiree...if you look hard enough.

Any suggestion on where to look? I know the owner at Parabellum has been in the market for at least a couple of months but so far no luck. Anyone feel like they fit the description above PM me and I'll forward it to the boss.. Some firearms experience is necessary but customer service and reliability is probably the most important qualities.



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[cctwcc]

$9/hr makes you safer huh? So if that same employee or a different employee were making $12/hr that would make them more apt to adhere to very well established firearms handling rules? How about all the ND's that happen to people that are not on the job? More or less money does not make you safer.

The first rule rule broken of not taking a malfunctioning gun off the range was carried out not by a customer as was reported here. It was done by, trust me, someone that should have known WAAAAYYYYY better than that. The gun had a mechanical issue. But the second employee broke another well established rule of gun safety and that is to not pull the trigger on a gun in order to check for a live round in the chamber. How much you are being paid at the time you make that mistake should not matter. You would not try that at home would you??

Not everything reported in this thread is true. Believe me or not it's your choice.

Now let's just say all the employees now make $12/hr. How much does range time, guns, ammo, etc. now cost? Now everyone would be saying that everything is too expensive there and they would never go to that place. In fact, if you remember correctly, people moaned about paying $5 to watch a mandatory safety video. Then there would no longer be a range available that is that nice to go shoot at. But what if the employer said "but wait, I pay all my employees more money because they would be so much safer", would that make you stay? I doubt it.

The chamber flag rule would be a great rule. But remember, it's a rule. If someone breaks that rule that is in place then the same bad things can happen. Rules were broken, bad things happened, management dealt with it.

People making more than $9/hr shoot themselves and or have ND's. It's the mechanical nature of a firearm and the fallible nature of man. This argument is like the gun free zones - if we put up signs people won't bring guns here - WRONG. compared too - If we have safe gun handling rules and pay people more money nobody will ever make a mistake around a gun - WRONG. I believe this is why when someone is swept with the muzzle of a gun you first reaction is not to yell out "HEY, HOW MUCH MONEY ARE YOU BEING PAID PER HOUR!?" That's because we know it does not matter at that moment.

Seems you have the inside track on what happened but hesitate to elaborate.. People DO make mistakes but mistakes are a result of something.. You make the call, it was either ignorance or stupidity. Idiot is defined as "lacking training or knowledge", Stupid is defined as "lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind". One or the other applies and I'm guessing that limiting wages is likely to get you the "stupid". Just my take on what should have never happened. And again the fact that two people erred leads me to believe that training was not the issue but absorbing the training was.. I only have second hand, at best, information but that's my take on what transpired. I'm not saying that paying more makes you safer but it may give you better odds of getting trainable employees. My position is that having trainable employees at a gun shop/range may be more of a concern that at MickyDs. Excessive ketchup VS excessive blood, one is much more serious than the other.

 

[mainjet]

Sometimes accidents are the result of accumulating errors in judgement. This could be in the form of breaking safety rules put in place to avoid immediate accidents or accidents that occur from that accumulating error in judgement. This happened to be a case of both. As I said before, the first mistake was made my someone that was (I believe) making more than $9/hr so there goes that argument. Also, that person was highly trained and experienced so there goes that argument.

The result of the first errors was that the second person to handle the malfunctioning weapon must have ASSUMED that the highly trained individual had taken proper care to insure that the weapon was clear. Now that was the second persons mistake. This does not make them an idiot or stupid. I just believe that it made them feel more comfortable that it was cleared properly. After all, there are rules in place, the first person knows better and the gun appeared to be clear - BAM! that is where a ND comes from. That is also the reason you don't want someone sweeping you with the muzzle of a gun even if they "know" that it is "unloaded".

As soon as you start to believe that just because there are safety precautions and rules in place that there is not going to be any mistake with a gun - BAM!

If you think that paying someone more makes them smarter and safer - BAM!

This would be an excellent place to post this video that has been seen many times.
(highly trained, "cleared the gun", knows better than everyone else there that is less trained than him, Makes more than $9/hr) - BAM!

https://youtu.be/am-Qdx6vky0

Yes I'm hesitant to elaborate. I don't feel that it is my place. I also will not pretend to know all the facts in the case. but what I will say is that some of the things reported here are completely false. Some assumptions about wages and people made here are completely false and will lead to a false sense of security at both ends of the wage scale.

I only chime in here to remind everyone that it is a ND caused by doing the wrong thing with a deadly weapon. There are proper handling techniques and proper rules in place to keep this from happening anywhere, by anyone at any level of income (including retirees). this is another reason why some people chose to have a sand barrel to point the muzzle into when they pull the trigger on an "unloaded" weapon. You just never know where your mind is and it's always better to be safe than sorry.

 

[LoriW]

I applied for the Greenwood Point Blank store since it's about 15 min from my home. I thought it would be an interesting place to work but I was summarily rejected.. Maybe my limited firearms experience wasn't enough for them OR it could be the fact that the starting wage I requested was above $9 an hour.. Since they do have people in Carmel that teach NRA basic pistol course and I have RSO certification I thought that experience might be a plus for them. Very cryptic statement from the guy in Ohio that called me, he said they appreciated me applying but wanted to "go a different direction".. He left me a voice mail so I didn't have the opportunity to ask him what he meant. I've also decided to "go a different direction" and continue to hang out at Parabellm a few days a week even though it's a 45 minute drive for me. It could change tomorrow but to date there hasn't been any gunfire in the showroom area and that's a real plus for me.

That sounds really familiar. My best friend (also a member here) applied for a PT job at PB Greenwood. Heard nothing back about her app so she went to the open interviews. They told her she was "exactly what they were looking for" and she'd hear an answer by the 7th. She got the same voice mail with the exact same answer. I wonder what their different direction is....

 

[jamil]

That sounds really familiar. My best friend (also a member here) applied for a PT job at PB Greenwood. Heard nothing back about her app so she went to the open interviews. They told her she was "exactly what they were looking for" and she'd hear an answer by the 7th. She got the same voice mail with the exact same answer. I wonder what their different direction is....

That's just HR speak for, "you didn't get the job."

 

[cctwcc]

Sometimes accidents are the result of accumulating errors in judgement. This could be in the form of breaking safety rules put in place to avoid immediate accidents or accidents that occur from that accumulating error in judgement. This happened to be a case of both. As I said before, the first mistake was made my someone that was (I believe) making more than $9/hr so there goes that argument. Also, that person was highly trained and experienced so there goes that argument.

The result of the first errors was that the second person to handle the malfunctioning weapon must have ASSUMED that the highly trained individual had taken proper care to insure that the weapon was clear. Now that was the second persons mistake. This does not make them an idiot or stupid. I just believe that it made them feel more comfortable that it was cleared properly. After all, there are rules in place, the first person knows better and the gun appeared to be clear - BAM! that is where a ND comes from. That is also the reason you don't want someone sweeping you with the muzzle of a gun even if they "know" that it is "unloaded".

As soon as you start to believe that just because there are safety precautions and rules in place that there is not going to be any mistake with a gun - BAM!

If you think that paying someone more makes them smarter and safer - BAM!

This would be an excellent place to post this video that has been seen many times.
(highly trained, "cleared the gun", knows better than everyone else there that is less trained than him, Makes more than $9/hr) - BAM!

https://youtu.be/am-Qdx6vky0

Yes I'm hesitant to elaborate. I don't feel that it is my place. I also will not pretend to know all the facts in the case. but what I will say is that some of the things reported here are completely false. Some assumptions about wages and people made here are completely false and will lead to a false sense of security at both ends of the wage scale.

I only chime in here to remind everyone that it is a ND caused by doing the wrong thing with a deadly weapon. There are proper handling techniques and proper rules in place to keep this from happening anywhere, by anyone at any level of income (including retirees). this is another reason why some people chose to have a sand barrel to point the muzzle into when they pull the trigger on an "unloaded" weapon. You just never know where your mind is and it's always better to be safe than sorry.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. No doubt in my mind that paying a reasonable wage raises the odds of getting a person with more experience and better training. It is a gun shop and range, inherently more dangerous than fast food so, at least in my mind it should pay accordingly.
First I will say that we are not talking about what you call an "accident". There's nothing accidental about knowing you have a loaded firearm in you hand and pulling the trigger.
I also see a lot of definite maybes in what you are saying.. (I believe) making more than $9 an hour ? if you don't know all the facts how can you make that assumption? I'm not asking you to "out" anyone but I would also be VERY interested in knowing the actual qualifications of the person you call "highly trained and experienced". Seen the vid before and that guy is an idiot, again obviously NOT highly trained and didn't clear the gun.. Certainly had a lot of training but like the PB people very little absorbed. . I could go on the the bottom line is that you have at least one of two individuals breaking all 4 of the the most important firearms safety rules (accumulating errors in judgement?) one breaking all the rules and the other was observing the fiasco. You're chalking it up to simply making a mistake and BAM and I'm thinking not just a mistake that happens to folks every day, and I see it as a lack of training and experience. They NEVER go BAM on their own. Just as aside, when I get the point that I need a sand barrel to assure I don't shoot a hole in the floor when checking clear I hope my family disarms me permanently because I wont be competent to handle a loaded firearm. Our opinions are 180 apart on this one so it's best tabled for another day and pray because of our training and experience we are shielded from the same outcome while handling a firearm.

 

[mainjet]

That's fine. I can agree to disagree.

 

[mainjet]

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. No doubt in my mind that paying a reasonable wage raises the odds of getting a person with more experience and better training. It is a gun shop and range, inherently more dangerous than fast food so, at least in my mind it should pay accordingly.
First I will say that we are not talking about what you call an "accident". There's nothing accidental about knowing you have a loaded firearm in you hand and pulling the trigger.
I also see a lot of definite maybes in what you are saying.. (I believe) making more than $9 an hour ? if you don't know all the facts how can you make that assumption? I'm not asking you to "out" anyone but I would also be VERY interested in knowing the actual qualifications of the person you call "highly trained and experienced". Seen the vid before and that guy is an idiot, again obviously NOT highly trained and didn't clear the gun.. Certainly had a lot of training but like the PB people very little absorbed. . I could go on the the bottom line is that you have at least one of two individuals breaking all 4 of the the most important firearms safety rules (accumulating errors in judgement?) one breaking all the rules and the other was observing the fiasco. You're chalking it up to simply making a mistake and BAM and I'm thinking not just a mistake that happens to folks every day, and I see it as a lack of training and experience. They NEVER go BAM on their own. Just as aside, when I get the point that I need a sand barrel to assure I don't shoot a hole in the floor when checking clear I hope my family disarms me permanently because I wont be competent to handle a loaded firearm. Our opinions are 180 apart on this one so it's best tabled for another day and pray because of our training and experience we are shielded from the same outcome while handling a firearm.

Sorry, I was on a fishing trip with poor/no internet access so I was not able to answer you very well.

First off, from your other thread, weren't you thinking about applying at Point Blank but you were concerned about the ND? With the ND aside, what was it that made you think about applying there? Was it your lack of experience and training or did you think that $9/hr at the time was a reasonable wage? I personally have not had a $9/hr wage for at least 30 years. But when I did make that kind of money I was quite capable of being safe and trainable. This may be one of the reasons that I have not made $9 for decades.

You can't simply look at the hourly wage and decide that only stupid people or people who are not trainable are the only ones that would take a job like that. Some people take a job like that for part time while they work their way through college. Would that make them stupid or untrainable? In fact, you were looking at a job there - are you stupid or untrainable?

Just keep this in the back of your head - you were filling out an application because you wanted to be the employee not the employer. When you are on the other side of the desk from that application then you can go hog wild with your wages for your employees.

We often use words like accident or mistake when it refers to negligence. But let's be honest, most accidents or mistakes are a result of negligence. We just decide to not say it in that way. We say I had a traffic accident but in reality someone or both someone’s were probably negligent. So we can play with semantics all day long and it does not change anything. I explained very well in my post that the gun went off from people being negligent and I pointed out that guns don't go BAM on their own. That was the point of the whole thing. Also, you can say that officer was not highly trained but he was. He screwed up because he was caught up in trying to be tough and his mind was elsewhere. My point is that it happens and him making more than $9/hr didn't change that. The fact that he was trained in the academy and was not a rookie cop also shows that he has more training with a firearm than your regular Joe and yet it happened. I am sure that in reality this guy was not an "idiot" he just had a very bad ND because he did not obey the rules and his mind was elsewhere. This was also another of my points in my post - They did not obey the rules. They are not idiots they just failed to obey the rules and think about what may happen. As a result they had a ND.

I said "I believe" because I am 95 percent sure based on what I know about it but I have never directly asked the question. So because I am an honest person (even on the internet) I leave room to be incorrect about this persons exact wage.

You ask how I can make assumptions if I don't know all the facts. Well, because this entire thread is assumptions and hearsay. I actually know what happened from start to finish but like I said, I don't believe that it is my place aside from pointing out a few errors that were made by people making assumptions based on hearsay. You actually made assumptions based on what you have heard and yet you act as though you are entitled and I am not. But I can assure you there are things said in this thread that are false. My knowledge of it is not from what I read not the internet.

The sad barrel is not for you and that's fine. I don't have one either but some people choose to and that is fine because again, it is another level of safety that they chose to put in place. I have also never had a ND but I will not say that I never will because pride cometh before a fall. Which is why I made the comment that guns are mechanical and people are fallible creatures.

You say our opinions are 180 degrees apart. It appears to be more along the lines of hourly wage. But as I said, I have not applied for a $9/hr job in decades and you seem to indicate that you recently were considering it. So this may be an issue that makes you more raw. I come from the side of deciding what the hourly rate will be and you come from the side of asking what the hourly rate will be and that often puts people’s opinions 180 degrees apart but that's another reason for the door.

 

[cctwcc]

Sorry, I was on a fishing trip with poor/no internet access so I was not able to answer you very well.

First off, from your other thread, weren't you thinking about applying at Point Blank but you were concerned about the ND? With the ND aside, what was it that made you think about applying there? Was it your lack of experience and training or did you think that $9/hr at the time was a reasonable wage? I personally have not had a $9/hr wage for at least 30 years. But when I did make that kind of money I was quite capable of being safe and trainable. This may be one of the reasons that I have not made $9 for decades.

You can't simply look at the hourly wage and decide that only stupid people or people who are not trainable are the only ones that would take a job like that. Some people take a job like that for part time while they work their way through college. Would that make them stupid or untrainable? In fact, you were looking at a job there - are you stupid or untrainable?

Just keep this in the back of your head - you were filling out an application because you wanted to be the employee not the employer. When you are on the other side of the desk from that application then you can go hog wild with your wages for your employees.

We often use words like accident or mistake when it refers to negligence. But let's be honest, most accidents or mistakes are a result of negligence. We just decide to not say it in that way. We say I had a traffic accident but in reality someone or both someone’s were probably negligent. So we can play with semantics all day long and it does not change anything. I explained very well in my post that the gun went off from people being negligent and I pointed out that guns don't go BAM on their own. That was the point of the whole thing. Also, you can say that officer was not highly trained but he was. He screwed up because he was caught up in trying to be tough and his mind was elsewhere. My point is that it happens and him making more than $9/hr didn't change that. The fact that he was trained in the academy and was not a rookie cop also shows that he has more training with a firearm than your regular Joe and yet it happened. I am sure that in reality this guy was not an "idiot" he just had a very bad ND because he did not obey the rules and his mind was elsewhere. This was also another of my points in my post - They did not obey the rules. They are not idiots they just failed to obey the rules and think about what may happen. As a result they had a ND.

I said "I believe" because I am 95 percent sure based on what I know about it but I have never directly asked the question. So because I am an honest person (even on the internet) I leave room to be incorrect about this persons exact wage.

You ask how I can make assumptions if I don't know all the facts. Well, because this entire thread is assumptions and hearsay. I actually know what happened from start to finish but like I said, I don't believe that it is my place aside from pointing out a few errors that were made by people making assumptions based on hearsay. You actually made assumptions based on what you have heard and yet you act as though you are entitled and I am not. But I can assure you there are things said in this thread that are false. My knowledge of it is not from what I read not the internet.

The sad barrel is not for you and that's fine. I don't have one either but some people choose to and that is fine because again, it is another level of safety that they chose to put in place. I have also never had a ND but I will not say that I never will because pride cometh before a fall. Which is why I made the comment that guns are mechanical and people are fallible creatures.

You say our opinions are 180 degrees apart. It appears to be more along the lines of hourly wage. But as I said, I have not applied for a $9/hr job in decades and you seem to indicate that you recently were considering it. So this may be an issue that makes you more raw. I come from the side of deciding what the hourly rate will be and you come from the side of asking what the hourly rate will be and that often puts people’s opinions 180 degrees apart but that's another reason for the door.

It would not surprise me at all if some of what has been shared was not true but I don't see how setting the record straight would muddy the waters?? It troubles me that you continue to speak about the "few errors" that were made.. Thats where we differ and one of a few things you said that does tend to make me "raw". It wasn't a few errors it was 4 glaring, blatant mistakes. Sugar coating what happened serves no purpose. But I digress.
Yes I was thinking of applying but at that point I had not heard about the ND and I also had no idea (and still don't) what the pay scale actually is. I got the $9 figure right here on INGO. I won't go into my experience, training or skills other than to say I do have a few years of experience in relation to firearms. I will say, the staff at PB is very personable and cordial but firearms and firearms training knowledge is not their strong suit. (as evidenced by other posts here on INGO and the ND in the showroom)
Like you I haven't made $9 an hour in decades but unlike you I believe I remember when I was last working for $9 an hour and it was in 1978 when I graduated as a Journeyman toolmaker. Your condescending "It's beneath me to recall the last time I made $9 and hour" doesn't play well and only serves to lessen your credibility.
At this point I'm retired and have a very comfortable life, I don't NEED a job, I work, when I choose at what I enjoy because if you really enjoy it, it isn't work. My reason for considering a position at PB was that I thought I would enjoy giving back in a field that I have some experience in. I refuse to offer my skill set, such as it is, to someone for entry level wages so they can make a fortune on their customers. If they can afford to erect a 3 million dollar facility they can afford to pay their employees something above entry level wages. The simple fact is that $9 an hour (if that is what PB is offering) IS the starting wage that the McDonalds and the Wal-Mart in my area. If $9 and hour is the going wage for entry level, no experience in anything workers it's not enough to get skilled intelligent help for a gunshop/range, hence NDs in the showroom.. Just to give you an example, the knowledge and skill to demonstrate the take down procedure for a 1911 is a bit harder to come by than the knowledge to explain the difference between slivered onions and dehydrated onions. It seems you believe that anyone that is worthy of $9 an hour, could with a little training, do anything an employer might require. After seeing a GM employee launch a 1911 recoil spring plug across the store (much less attention getting and dangerous than an ND) demonstrating take down, I'm thinking they may have a problem also.
Concerning negligence, it is just that, nothing more. As they say you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. The world is full of the "it's not my fault" crowd.. Anyone that does something stupid should just own up to it and move on. We've all made mistakes but personally I have a problem with people making excuses and blaming "things" for their mistakes. (one of the things that actually does make me "raw") An ND is simply operator error and to make excuses or call it some kind of mistake or lapse in judgement insults everyone's intelligence.
I could go on for hours but I'm sure that educating an entrepreneur, such as you obviously are, is beyond my humble capabilities.
Speaking of educating, if you would be so kind to consider a little advice a from from one of the dregs of society, just because it's not underlined in red doesn't mean it's correct. To prove my point I'll just go run a few rounds in my sad barrel and call it a day. Yes, I believe we are still agreeing to disagree but I won't bother with any more of that silly common sense talk. At this point you've probably figured out another thing that really makes me "raw" as you are so fond of saying, "smartest guy in the room" kind of guys.

 

[mainjet]

Speaking of educating, if you would be so kind to consider a little advice a from from one of the dregs of society, just because it's not underlined in red doesn't mean it's correct. To prove my point I'll just go run a few rounds in my sad barrel and call it a day.

Oh man you nailed me to the wall with that typo. You might want to proof read your post as well.

I don't normally get caught up in that typo stuff because it happens all the time. But I know you are new so welcome.

 

[churchmouse]

OK you two. Kiss and make up please.

 

[mainjet]

 

[cctwcc]

Sorry, no kissing for me thank you but I will let this thread pass away. Sometimes, depending on the company I don't play well with others but it's your forum and your rules and I do, for the most part, enjoy and appreciate what is going on here. I was simply trying to make a relevant point. I'll go back to my normal "lurk" mode.

 

[churchmouse]

Sorry, no kissing for me thank you but I will let this thread pass away. Sometimes, depending on the company I don't play well with others but it's your forum and your rules and I do, for the most part, enjoy and appreciate what is going on here. I was simply trying to make a relevant point. I'll go back to my normal "lurk" mode.

Post away. No worries.

OK, how about just a big man hug.....

 

[churchmouse]

..................

 

[NHT3]

Post away. No worries.

OK, how about just a big man hug.....

CM you offering man hugs now.. I might take you up on that if the offer is open to others.. Been watching this and wondered how it would play out. We've never actually met but I may be involved when Allen does the 1911 instruction.



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[/FONT]Certified Glock armorer- Certified M&P armorer[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]