Indoor match at Parabellum in Avon December 17, 2014

[chipbennett]

So, if I want to plan ahead to participate in a future event, what all would I need (outside of normal carry/range gear)? I assume:

1. OWB holster
2. Magazine carrier that can hold 2 magazines

Anything else?

 

[Rob377]

So, if I want to plan ahead to participate in a future event, what all would I need (outside of normal carry/range gear)? I assume:

1. OWB holster
2. Magazine carrier that can hold 2 magazines

Anything else?

You can run IWB if you want.

The magazine carrier requirement will depend largely on what division you want to shoot. The typical Glock, M&P, XD, and DA/SA guns fit well in Production division (not class). In that division, the number of rounds in the magazine is limited to 10, so you will need at least 4 magazines to complete a 32rd course of fire, and at least 3 pouches in which to hold them. Most will have more. I have 5 pouches on my production rig, for example. (I rarely use the 4th and 5th pouch back, but they are nice for certain stages)

Those guns can also be run in limited division, albeit at somewhat of a disadvantage, loaded to full capacity. That way, a Glock 22 or what have you, with 15rd mags would be fine only running 2 mags on the belt, and 1 in the gun.

 

[chipbennett]

You can run IWB if you want.

The magazine carrier requirement will depend largely on what division you want to shoot. The typical Glock, M&P, XD, and DA/SA guns fit well in Production division (not class). In that division, the number of rounds in the magazine is limited to 10, so you will need at least 4 magazines to complete a 32rd course of fire, and at least 3 pouches in which to hold them. Most will have more. I have 5 pouches on my production rig, for example. (I rarely use the 4th and 5th pouch back, but they are nice for certain stages)

Those guns can also be run in limited division, albeit at somewhat of a disadvantage, loaded to full capacity. That way, a Glock 22 or what have you, with 15rd mags would be fine only running 2 mags on the belt, and 1 in the gun.

I use a Ruger SR9c, and have multiple 10- and 17-rd magazines. So, for some competitions, I would need 4-5, 10-rd magazines, but for others, 2 17-rd magazines would suffice? Or, in the capacity-limited division, can I use a 17-rd magazine loaded with only 10 rounds?

(I know, I know; these questions are probably ALL answered at the class; my travel schedule has precluded me from attending that, as well.)

 

[partyboy6686]

I use a Ruger SR9c, and have multiple 10- and 17-rd magazines. So, for some competitions, I would need 4-5, 10-rd magazines, but for others, 2 17-rd magazines would suffice? Or, in the capacity-limited division, can I use a 17-rd magazine loaded with only 10 rounds?

(I know, I know; these questions are probably ALL answered at the class; my travel schedule has precluded me from attending that, as well.)

Production limits you to 10 rounds in each mag. So you would need 4-5 mags on your belt. Limited allows you to load as many rounds as the mag will hold. You can get extended mag base pads for some mags that will allow you to hold even more rounds in Limited division as long as the extended mag fits in the 140mm mag length gauge. Most Limited shooters carry 2-3 mags on their belt.

 

[Rob377]

I agree 100% with that. My position is that the gear plays the smallest part as long as it's reliable and not wildly inaccurate.

Rob, I have no idea what you shoot, but how much did you gain when you switched to whatever you shoot now? Was that gain immediate and repeatable? It's a serious question...

I think you're right on that, with the addition of the accuracy qualifier. I'd take it a little further though, and change "not wildly inaccurate" to "reasonably accurate" Even more so for someone coming in to the sport. An accurate gun gives a shooter working on fundamentals better feedback, because it takes another variable out of the equation. If someone shoots my Tanfo and produces an 8" group at 20yds, it is DEFINITELY them and not the gun. With a hi-point....could be one or the other or both. Or heck, even a substantial portion of M&Ps might be suspect.

Within that, there are practical accuracy considerations like the trigger. It's possible that the lousy group is a result of the heavy, mushy trigger. Or crappy sights.

Take the mechanical accuracy and practical accuracy variables out of the equation with a decent gun, and the newer shooter has better, more accurate information on his/her targets with which to diagnose issues.

Gun accuracy and shooter accuracy are compounding problem. That is to say, the gun's mechanical inaccuracy adds to the shooter's inaccuracy. If we take a hypothetically perfect gun and a shooter manages 4" groups with it, then give him a gun that groups 4" from a ransom rest, conventional gun forum wisdom is that that shooter will still group 4". But that's not actually the case, because the gun error compounds the shooter error. The shot that was 2" out with the hypothetical perfect gun is now possibly 4" out (from center, so we're at 8") because the gun's variation adds on to shooter variation.

On top of that, for our sort of competition, there's a lot to think about when running a stage, ESPECIALLY when you're starting out. Where to reload? Timing on an activating target? managing risk on no-shoot targets? Having a terrible trigger, or tiny magwell, or crappy sights that require conscious effort to "manage" is adding that much more to think about when you're trying to get as many points in as little time as possible.


The benefit curve flattens out somewhat once you get past a certain threshold of gear. Go from a Hi-point to a nicely tuned Glock? I'd guestimate, on average, 20% better scores. Go from a Glock to a something really nice like a Tanfo? maybe 5%. That'll vary on the flavor of the match. Indiana clubs have a tendency toward "hoser" matches where accuracy matters less. Go to some bigger matches where there are pieces of steel obscured by hardcover or targets covered by no-shoot targets at 20+ yds, and that less than reasonably accurate gun is a very big disadvantage. A gun that groups 8" at 25yds is a HUGE liability when you're shooting at 4" of A zone bordered by a no-shoot target at 25yds. Even with a perfect sight picture and perfect trigger press, there's still a significant probability that you're taking a miss/no-shoot. That's no bueno.

 

[Rob377]

I use a Ruger SR9c, and have multiple 10- and 17-rd magazines. So, for some competitions, I would need 4-5, 10-rd magazines, but for others, 2 17-rd magazines would suffice? Or, in the capacity-limited division, can I use a 17-rd magazine loaded with only 10 rounds?

(I know, I know; these questions are probably ALL answered at the class; my travel schedule has precluded me from attending that, as well.)

Definitely catch one of the intro classes Coach puts on a Parabellum.


Yes, you can "short load" your 17rd mags to 10 rds for divisions that require that. You do NOT need to buy 10rd specific mags.


As far as "some competitions" - Any USPSA match will give you the option on which division you'd like to shoot. Open, Limited, Limited10, Production, Single stack, or even revolver. You'll shoot the same courses of fire, but your score will be within the division you declare. The question of whether you need 2 17rd mags or 4-5 mags capable of holding 10 is entirely up to you, because either option will be available.

 

[partyboy6686]

I agree 100% with that. My position is that the gear plays the smallest part as long as it's reliable and not wildly inaccurate.

Rob, I have no idea what you shoot, but how much did you gain when you switched to whatever you shoot now? Was that gain immediate and repeatable? It's a serious question...

Rob shoots Production division. Right now he uses a Tanfo Stock II aka the "UNICORN". But he shot a FNH and a Glock before he picked up the Tanfo Stock II. He loves the Tanfo Stock II but I think he can shoot all the guns mentioned above at the same fast speed.

 

[Rob377]

Rob shoots Production division. Right now he uses a Tanfo Stock II aka the "UNICORN". But he shot a FNH and a Glock before he picked up the Tanfo Stock II. He loves the Tanfo Stock II but I think he can shoot all the guns mentioned above at the same fast speed.

On close hosey stuff, yes. But if I need to hit a mini popper at distance on the move, or a partial target covered with no-shoots, I want the Unicorn.

 

[partyboy6686]

On close hosey stuff, yes. But if I need to hit a mini popper at distance on the move, or a partial target covered with no-shoots, I want the Unicorn.

Something about that all metal gun that barely recoils that helps with the long distance shot on the move or a partial no-shoot target. Thats why I love the 1911's.

 

[mammynun]

On top of that, for our sort of competition, there's a lot to think about when running a stage, ESPECIALLY when you're starting out. Where to reload? Timing on an activating target? managing risk on no-shoot targets? Having a terrible trigger, or tiny magwell, or crappy sights that require conscious effort to "manage" is adding that much more to think about when you're trying to get as many points in as little time as possible.

I can fully relate to this. I have shot exactly one USPSA match, and that match had 6 stages. Of those 6 stages, I shot a total of 1 the way I had planned to shoot before the buzzer went off... and it was the El Presidente classifier! I failed to engage a bunch of targets, and I mean a BUNCH... I had 70 penalty points on one stage. But I don't think I had any mikes... I shot pretty well, I just didn't shoot enough! Well, at any rate I had fun and didn't DQ myself and that was the goal for the day. I hope the holster for my SP-01 arrives before I go to my next match, but at my skill level my M&P 40 isn't holding me back. I am the weak link.

 

[Rob377]

I can fully relate to this. I have shot exactly one USPSA match, and that match had 6 stages. Of those 6 stages, I shot a total of 1 the way I had planned to shoot before the buzzer went off... and it was the El Presidente classifier! I failed to engage a bunch of targets, and I mean a BUNCH... I had 70 penalty points on one stage. But I don't think I had any mikes... I shot pretty well, I just didn't shoot enough! Well, at any rate I had fun and didn't DQ myself and that was the goal for the day. I hope the holster for my SP-01 arrives before I go to my next match, but at my skill level my M&P 40 isn't holding me back. I am the weak link.

Welcome to the sport!

 

[Bosshoss]

I can fully relate to this. I have shot exactly one USPSA match, and that match had 6 stages. Of those 6 stages, I shot a total of 1 the way I had planned to shoot before the buzzer went off... and it was the El Presidente classifier! I failed to engage a bunch of targets, and I mean a BUNCH... I had 70 penalty points on one stage. But I don't think I had any mikes... I shot pretty well, I just didn't shoot enough! Well, at any rate I had fun and didn't DQ myself and that was the goal for the day. I hope the holster for my SP-01 arrives before I go to my next match, but at my skill level my M&P 40 isn't holding me back. I am the weak link.

Glenn you shot very well for the first match. Like I told you after the match you did better than most first timers. You had decent accuracy and was safe. As for forgetting targets those were some good stages for that. Several on our squad forgot some targets and they weren't new shooters.
It won't be long before the I'm new thing won't get you any sympathy from the guys when you miss a shot or forget a target.

There are lots of M and GM shooters who shoot Glocks and M&P's and it doesn't seem to hold them back.

BTW Kudos to you for helping Dave and Dan set up the stages during the week.

 

[chipbennett]

I am the weak link.

I'm pretty sure that sentiment will describe me as well - which is a large part of why I want to get involved with events such as these.

 

[Rob377]

Glenn you shot very well for the first match. Like I told you after the match you did better than most first timers. You had decent accuracy and was safe. As for forgetting targets those were some good stages for that. Several on our squad forgot some targets and they weren't new shooters.
It won't be long before the I'm new thing won't get you any sympathy from the guys when you miss a shot or forget a target.

There are lots of M and GM shooters who shoot Glocks and M&P's and it doesn't seem to hold them back.

BTW Kudos to you for helping Dave and Dan set up the stages during the week.

I know 2 Master class shooters that run a revolver, and it doesn't hold them back!

 

[Twangbanger]

I use a Ruger SR9c, and have multiple 10- and 17-rd magazines. So, for some competitions, I would need 4-5, 10-rd magazines, but for others, 2 17-rd magazines would suffice? Or, in the capacity-limited division, can I use a 17-rd magazine loaded with only 10 rounds?

(I know, I know; these questions are probably ALL answered at the class; my travel schedule has precluded me from attending that, as well.)

Limited is the high-capacity division; Production limits you to 10 in the mag. Your gun can do either; the only question is which one to sign up for when you enter.

My advice; as a recent beginner myself, take it for what it's worth, but I'd recommend taking your high-cap 9, loading the mags to capacity, and shoot Limited. Only being confronted with running out of bullets about once per typical stage will allow you to work on reloads, but not be so focused on them that you spend more time on them than you do keeping your head up and shooting.

It's like getting interrupted at work; interruptions kill, and they kill you more when you're a noob and learning to cope with a bunch of new things you have to learn. I shot single stack my first few matches and spent so much time with my head down making a beer run for more ammo on 30+ shot stages, every time I got my sights back on target I had to figure out where I was at and completely re-orient myself to the task once again. Rob made the comment on a previous thread that you're only scoring when you're shooting. I recommend focusing on the division that maximizes shooting in the beginning, and save the divisions that add in more complex tasks and non-value-added distractions later, when your mind is able to absorb what's happening better.

Take your bullet-hose gun, load it to the max, and give yourself a break the first couple times out. Just my $0.02, from somebody who's not even classified yet.

 

[rhino]

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me a gun that allows me to reach the trigger without a lot of effort is the key. I'm choosing to shoot Glocks because unless I get my grip "just right," I am physically unable to press the trigger directly to the rear on a consistent basis. If I take the gun out, adjust my grip, then shoot I can do okay. USPSA forces me to draw, and while I know I should get a good grip while it's still in the holster, we all know what happens to most of us when the beep sounds. It's getting better. I can do okay with my G17 and now the G19 is my tool for my "practice with witnesses."

I shoot much better with a single stack 1911, primarily because I can configure with a short trigger and slip grip panels. It's also a lot easier to press that particular trigger than it is a Glock, so I'm always going to shoot better with a 1911. On the bright side, shooting the Glocks has made shooting 1911s even easier by comparison.

 

[AllenM]

since you guys are talking equipment.....sort of. I want to add extended base pads on the mags for my limited gun. It seems everybody is using them but when I look them up online they say "may not be USPSA legal" or ay not fit mag gage.
What gives?

 

[CB45]

There is a 140mm mag length restriction in Limited.

Some base pad / mag tube combinations will exceed 140mm. There is an "official" gauge available somewhere. Dawson and TTI do a pretty good job recommending which ones to use with what brand mag tube, but sometimes it takes a little trial/error.

"Dawson +1 SNL" usually require some tuning to fit the gauge in my experience.

I think TTI 4g2 are designed to fit the 140mm gauge, but I'm not 100% sure about with SVI tubes.

I'd call TTI or Dawson and get thier recommendation.

 

[AllenM]

There is a 140mm mag length restriction in Limited.

Some base pad / mag tube combinations will exceed 140mm. There is an "official" gauge available somewhere. Dawson and TTI do a pretty good job recommending which ones to use with what brand mag tube, but sometimes it takes a little trial/error.

"Dawson +1 SNL" usually require some tuning to fit the gauge in my experience.

I think TTI 4g2 are designed to fit the 140mm gauge, but I'm not 100% sure about with SVI tubes.

I'd call TTI or Dawson and get thier recommendation.

Thanks

 

[Coach]

For what it is worth,
I have shot UPSA since 2003. I have shot many Area matches and the 2012 Limited Nationals. I have never had someone check mag length. My stuff is legal as far as I know. But I would guess there are lots of folks out there who are not legal. A can of worms that has not been opened in my experiences. Perhaps with a new guy running NROI something may change, but I doubt it.