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Is it my imagination? Or are people trending away from .45acp?
- Thread starter 223 Gunner
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They were just reporting a study...People who ignore ballistics and real-world results of deadly force encounters with modern defensive ammo are the ones who need to get a grip.
Funny how NPR is a trusted source now.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2016/07/24/weak-hands-millennials-lose-grips/87245344/
No. Kids all drank the same koolaid from the marketing majors.
Excessive recoil with no additional gain in effectiveness is not a desired feature of a defensive handgun.
I'm kinda worried that our special forces may have switched to 9mm because of weak grips or the inability to handle recoil.
And here I though that people liked the 45 because its recoil is "more of a push" than the nearly uncontrollable snap of the 40.
I am not an expert on the Seals/DEGRU but from what I have seen their primary weapon is their carbine. They have the choice of carrying a G19, P226 or HK45CT as a backup weapon. What they would each carry if given a free choice, I have no idea.
223 Gunner
Master
Excessive recoil with no additional gain in effectiveness is not a desired feature of a defensive handgun.
I'm kinda worried that our special forces may have switched to 9mm because of weak grips or the inability to handle recoil.
And here I though that people liked the 45 because its recoil is "more of a push" than the nearly uncontrollable snap of the 40.
I have no problem handling the recoil of a .40, which my current EDC is a VP40LE
profjeremy
Sharpshooter
I can’t say that I “moved away” from .45 ACP, but if I were invested in it, I certainly wouldn’t abandon it for 9mm. In fact, I started off with 9mm as my first handgun caliber and later wanted to get into a larger caliber. When I evaluated which one to choose (between .45 ACP, .40 S&W and 10mm), I ended up landing on 10mm and honestly it’s become my favorite caliber to shoot. Nothing against .45 ACP, it was my runner up. I don't agree that .40 S&W outperforms it at all, in fact, .40 S&W seems pointless to me with good 10mm and .45 ACP gun options out there. The tie breaker at the time was that I tracked prices for a few weeks and found that price and availability of 10mm was more consistent at that time, plus I liked the additional velocity for more range.
I use 9mm for my EDC because of concealability, but my home defense is 10mm and I would definitely pick .45 ACP over going 9mm only.
I use 9mm for my EDC because of concealability, but my home defense is 10mm and I would definitely pick .45 ACP over going 9mm only.
I get it. I am not Ranger Rick or play him on TV. The OP on the other hand drew a question of caliber extinction. I, entitled to my OPINION have my beliefs and am well within my rights to share them on this forum. Let me disclaim a few things before I tell you exactly as I see it.
I have the deepest respect for any public service or military personnel.
I have many friends, students and realitives that are in the Military and LE.
I know a lot of Good Shooters both in the Military and Police Depts that are at the top of their game when it comes to shooting.
I shoot and play with lots of 9mm.
I say all this with love and kisses and Panda Bears.
The OP brings up a great point about a shifting market to 9mm. My take is this. When Gaston came to town the timing was perfect. Illinois SP and other departments had already adopted Model 59's and such for a higher capacity deployment. While S&W was trying to get it done, Glock got it done. And for Police Dept where the masses need to be outfitted in a streamlined manner, the plastic gun became a part of the uniform and served the job well. The transformation to Military would take longer. Those Generals thought that we needed to keep metal frames for our military sidearms so we contracted with an Italian Corporation to build us the M92. This was rather short lived in comparison to the long running 1911 45ACP. But have no fear, as we advanced as a nation, the Generals now accepted bids from plastic gun makers. Still in the friendlier kinder gentler higher capacity 9mm round but what the heck, a German Corporation was hired to supply US forces. We have and are still seeing the problems of the M17 and its civic rosters. Lets face it, both gun runs together do not have the life as our Military sidearm that the 1911 45ACP has. I don't think the 9mm has claimed the victories that the 1911 45 has but I could be wrong. Time will tell, as it is this authors opinion that it will change again maybe sooner than we think. Now because of military backing, ammo and components got better, less expensive to shoot, and just easier all the way around to equip the masses with lots of ammo as a shortcut to learning how to actually shoot. Even the GunGames went to higher round counts for scenarios, Something that is fun but in no way shape or form is Practical for the CCW today. I have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds both in 9MM and 45ACP and enjoy each for what it brings to the table. But when I am told things like, This particle board is better than plywood, or slab home construction is best, or you can see a Practicing Nurse instead of the Doctor, or our election process is accurate and fair, I tend to not drink the Koolaid that quick.
How and Who ever let this countries trusted experts in the shooting field be the Military or Police as promoted to civility is beyond me. Outfitting the millions of Military and Police personnel is far different from outfitting todays urban CCW. Taking our governments word for what is best is like saying, well since I worked at Burger King, I must be a Chef. While much of the equipment will work for the Individual EDC, there are compromises. All M&P Departments work for a Political based Administration. Quite simply, they have to do what they are told and accept the manual of arms. I don't. Todays CCW is responsible for his own well being on our streets. Now, he can watch video games, go to you tube university, and even praise to a higher GOD called Luger, but I won't. No, I don't dig around in Post Mortem GSW bodies to write some report that will result in a Bible written to make people believe what I want them to. So for me, my street ammo will be 45 over 9mm. Its what I grew up with and I have no reason to turn my back on it now. Unless of course they make a .46.
Now for the OP question. I do not have the data to support what calibers are doing what, especially in this crazy market we are in. I do know this, the masses are 9mm driven and there goes the inventory in times of panic for all. This of course is not a good thing for those that did not keep a supply. The Military/Police does not have this problem. You do. Also as a byproduct of 9mm going first so does SP Primers. The Military/Police does not have this problem. You do. This question is not new. It was said the 45/70 will be obsolete. It is hard to find and sold out in 2020. I was told the .30-30 is a terrible round and will go obsolete. It isn't. However, the .40 caliber, In My Humble Opinion was a marketing move and it wasn't going strong even before todays climate. Just saying. Now, if there is a swing to the 9mm from the 45, that's okay. It is a fine cartridge and will do for most folks. But for me, I will play with the little round but I tend to like a bigger hole.
Now, what I have written may or may not be fact. It is what I believe and again I am entitled to that. I am not sponsored by Big Bores R US or care what anyone else believes in but I and only I will make those decisions for my self. We have had Spin Doctors on earth forever and I agree it is hard to see the truth within some of this 9vs45 discussion. Many of today's shooters have accepted 9mm as the standard. I am happy with .452" and will continue to trust my life and property to it as long as God allows me. Now, I worked hard to respond to this so I now will fix me a Saturday night Cocktail of OLD 55. It should not surprise any of you if I make it a double.
The Bubba Effect
Grandmaster
Like trapper Jim said above, .45acp is probably phasing out because people have figured out 9mm is just better.
People who ignore ballistics and real-world results of deadly force encounters with modern defensive ammo are the ones who need to get a grip.
Funny how NPR is a trusted source now.
Unfortunately, the one measure that would help solve this debate is a measure that’s not recorded. That is, time to incapacitation. It really would shed light here. We have lots of info gathered after death but that measure of exactly how long the fight stayed in someone after taking the first hit would be a great data point to have. Tough to gather though.
I don't find 45 acp to have more "significant" recoil than 9mm. Especially not when the majority of 45acp guns are full size steel frame boat anchors.
Weight makes a big difference, my 50ae isn't any harder to control than my daily carry.
45 super? Yeah, now we're talking about something significantly more.
Because chasing more velocity in a handgun isn't accomplishing anything unless you're shooting hard casts for hunting purposes.
It'll never be a rifle, and it'll never perform like a rifle. Being 5-10% more powerful than your average service caliber really isn't something the opponent is going to notice.
They do make a .46. It's called the 460 rowland. I have a conversion in a 1911 for it.
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Better at what exactly.
I carry a 1911 loaded with serious SD rounds and they hit steel a hell of a lot harder than a 9mm in any serious SD round. Just the standard "Non-Scientific" mouse range testing.
223 Gunner
Master
Thanks for all the replies Gentlemen.
I didn't really want to start a caliber debate, .45acp will certainly get the job done in a SD situation. And 1911's are cool, no doubt!
I have just noticed the past couple of years people selling off their .45's, it seemed to me with more frequency.
Maybe just my perception?
Maybe they had multiples? Maybe they only had one or two and decided to "move" them in the name of caliber commonality?
Me personally, I carry a .40 right now. I have carried over the years, 9mm, .40 and .45.
I like to carry higher capacity weapons because I want more rounds on board. I have never been in a self defense situation where a firearm was needed, and not sure how I would really act in a real world encounter.
I hope I never have to find out either.
And in today's world most likely there would be more than one assailant. From what I have read about 9mm as a carry round, we should carry "heavy" for caliber and use +P ammo as well, to achieve similar wound channels as .40 and .45.
I don't know how true that is, but to me it makes sense, which is one reason I have chosen the .40 as my carry caliber.
It seems the "typical" .40 caliber offerings are only one or two rounds less in a magazine as 9mm offerings.
I didn't really want to start a caliber debate, .45acp will certainly get the job done in a SD situation. And 1911's are cool, no doubt!
I have just noticed the past couple of years people selling off their .45's, it seemed to me with more frequency.
Maybe just my perception?
Maybe they had multiples? Maybe they only had one or two and decided to "move" them in the name of caliber commonality?
Me personally, I carry a .40 right now. I have carried over the years, 9mm, .40 and .45.
I like to carry higher capacity weapons because I want more rounds on board. I have never been in a self defense situation where a firearm was needed, and not sure how I would really act in a real world encounter.
I hope I never have to find out either.
And in today's world most likely there would be more than one assailant. From what I have read about 9mm as a carry round, we should carry "heavy" for caliber and use +P ammo as well, to achieve similar wound channels as .40 and .45.
I don't know how true that is, but to me it makes sense, which is one reason I have chosen the .40 as my carry caliber.
It seems the "typical" .40 caliber offerings are only one or two rounds less in a magazine as 9mm offerings.
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