Man shot at Lt. Allen's funeral

[Jimb]

I bet you're one of those chamber empty guys.

Every accident, firearm related or otherwise, can be said to have been just waiting to happen...inherent to the term "accident" I believe. That being said....they do happen... and no matter how much control we think we have over every little aspect of our controllable little lives; every single possible action of every single possible minute can not be manipulated by human intervention. Accident is defined in Webster for a reason.
I am not law enforcement, and I am one of those empty chamber guys. I am prior military, which is where this comes from I suppose with me anyway. It is a conscious decision on my part that shouldn't confront you one way or the other, regarding how I choose to carry. I understand why some folks feel the need to be locked & loaded, and I definitely understand why law enforcement needs to be. I don't feel either is an accident waiting to happen; one just has the potential for negative consequences if the same accident occurs to both.

 

[Denny347]

Safariland makes a safe holster, Glock makes a safe gun, this is not an indictment of either. However, this is a cautionary story. Be aware of what is around your holster/gun. I personally HATE anything dangling off my duty belt or off my uniform. Things hanging down increase the risk of bang.

 

[bwframe]

Safariland makes a safe holster, Glock makes a safe gun, this is not an indictment of either. However, this is a cautionary story. Be aware of what is around your holster/gun. I personally HATE anything dangling off my duty belt or off my uniform. Things hanging down increase the risk of bang.

Is every officer issued a gun light and light bearing holster? Do some not carry gun lights with a different version of this holster that covers the trigger?

 

[Goodcat]

It appears this was a freak accident, but negligence is somewhere. Judging from the pictures, I'd say it lies in the hands of the department's holster selection and the holster itself. Holster that does not securely and fully enclose the trigger = bad deal. As I read about these more and more, though I am confident in my leather holster selection that are stiff and cover the trigger, I am considering doing kydex only. I know it's blasphemy, but when I ankle carry, I don't keep one in the chamber because I am not confident in my ankle holsters trigger cover area being cloth.

 

[BE Mike]

WOMAN deputy shot, according to the information you posted

The officer's gender identity has not been established, although the sex of the officer has. Details at 11!

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Every accident, firearm related or otherwise, can be said to have been just waiting to happen...inherent to the term "accident" I believe. That being said....they do happen... and no matter how much control we think we have over every little aspect of our controllable little lives; every single possible action of every single possible minute can not be manipulated by human intervention. Accident is defined in Webster for a reason.
I am not law enforcement, and I am one of those empty chamber guys. I am prior military, which is where this comes from I suppose with me anyway. It is a conscious decision on my part that shouldn't confront you one way or the other, regarding how I choose to carry. I understand why some folks feel the need to be locked & loaded, and I definitely understand why law enforcement needs to be. I don't feel either is an accident waiting to happen; one just has the potential for negative consequences if the same accident occurs to both.

Do whatever it is you need to do.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Is every officer issued a gun light and light bearing holster? Do some not carry gun lights with a different version of this holster that covers the trigger?

Every new officer is. If you came on before they issued lights you got a different holster, and they did not retrofit. Officers could buy their own, though. I was not issued a light, but did buy one and the holster. You do still see some guys with the older ones, though. I donated mine to a reserve officer who had to buy his own equipment years ago, though, and no longer have one.

Soooooo, according to some here, blaming guns for gun violence is silly but blaming a gun for an ND makes perfect sense.

Makes perfect sense.

Who do we blame? The officer?

Maybe I'm going to attract all kinds of ridicule for even asking, but how likely would this have been with a conventional DA/SA pistol?

With a hood or strap that keeps the hammer from rising, impossible without breaking the holster or defeating the retention mechanism. Without controlling the hammer, nearly the same risk. The difference between a 5 lb trigger and a 11 lb trigger isn't going to matter with the force of an adult standing up if it was something attached to the chair. MAYBE you get a shirt tail caught or something that could generate more than 5 lb but less than 11, but that'd require some Goldilocks level obstruction. The external hammer and controlling it is the main difference during holstering and riding in the holster.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

It appears this was a freak accident, but negligence is somewhere. Judging from the pictures, I'd say it lies in the hands of the department's holster selection and the holster itself. Holster that does not securely and fully enclose the trigger = bad deal. As I read about these more and more, though I am confident in my leather holster selection that are stiff and cover the trigger, I am considering doing kydex only. I know it's blasphemy, but when I ankle carry, I don't keep one in the chamber because I am not confident in my ankle holsters trigger cover area being cloth.

One AD in the 8 years we have been using the holsters and it was caused by an object getting into the holster equals negligence?

 

[Denny347]

It appears this was a freak accident, but negligence is somewhere. Judging from the pictures, I'd say it lies in the hands of the department's holster selection and the holster itself. Holster that does not securely and fully enclose the trigger = bad deal. As I read about these more and more, though I am confident in my leather holster selection that are stiff and cover the trigger, I am considering doing kydex only. I know it's blasphemy, but when I ankle carry, I don't keep one in the chamber because I am not confident in my ankle holsters trigger cover area being cloth.

You cannot prevent that gap if you have a weapon light attached. Otherwise the handgun will never come out. It is a compromise with slight risk. After 10 years or so of these holsters and 1 ND, it is more of a perfect storm of events that let to this.

 

[IndyTom]

You cannot prevent that gap if you have a weapon light attached. Otherwise the handgun will never come out. It is a compromise with slight risk. After 10 years or so of these holsters and 1 ND, it is more of a perfect storm of events that let to this.

In your pictures, is the Glock fully seated in that holster? I can understand the need for the side-to-side space due to the light, but why, if it is fully seated, is the holster showing so much of the trigger guard?

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

In your pictures, is the Glock fully seated in that holster? I can understand the need for the side-to-side space due to the light, but why, if it is fully seated, is the holster showing so much of the trigger guard?

Ask Safariland.

 

[phylodog]

Not trying to be argumentative or reinforce your criticism, but surely there were more reasons than just capacity that motivated so many departments to move away from single action pistols (1911) over to DA/SA and striker pistols, or else those same departments would all be carrying Browning P35s today.
Not saying that's the only reason, but it certainly had at least something to do with such a widely adopted decision.
Come to think of it, this particular AD never would have happened unless both the thumb safety had been disengaged and if something had been pressed down against the grip safety.

I'd bet if the statistics were available we would find that most agencies went from revolvers to DA/SA or striker fired. In my experience I have seen few agencies who have or do carry single action pistols.

 

[phylodog]

Who do we blame? The officer?

I don't have an answer for that, I've not yet seen the specifics of what happened. As others have stated I'm of the firm belief that sometimes **** simply happens. Doesn't mean we shouldn't evaluate the situation or make changes if necessary but I'm not one to set out looking for blood before I have any information.

Something pulled the trigger of that pistol. Considering the number of these pistols and holsters in use and the number of years they have been, I find it a touch difficult to swallow that we've been narrowly evading negligence for well over a decade and it's finally reared its ugly head.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't have an answer for that, I've not yet seen the specifics of what happened. As others have stated I'm of the firm belief that sometimes **** simply happens. Doesn't mean we shouldn't evaluate the situation or make changes if necessary but I'm not one to set out looking for blood before I have any information.

Something pulled the trigger of that pistol. Considering the number of these pistols and holsters in use and the number of years they have been, I find it a touch difficult to swallow that we've been narrowly evading negligence for well over a decade and it's finally reared its ugly head.

Sometimes stuff does happen. That does not mean blaming the gun for gun violence and blaming the gun for an unintended discharge is the same. Gun violence is an intentional act and could be accomplished with literally any working firearm. Unintended discharges have a software and a hardware component, and some guns are simply easier to unintentionally discharge. That's not blaming the gun, that's just acknowledging realities.

 

[phylodog]

My comparison comment was directed at a few specific posts in this thread, we can disagree as to the validity/idiocy of those posts. I've yet to see a Glock pistol fire without something/someone pulling the trigger, claims that the design is unsafe are based on ignorance.

 

[oldpink]

I'd bet if the statistics were available we would find that most agencies went from revolvers to DA/SA or striker fired. In my experience I have seen few agencies who have or do carry single action pistols.

FWIW, at least as recently as 2003, New Castle Sheriff's Department carried 1911s.
I did some service work on the cameras in the jail there and chatted a bit with a few of the deputies, so I was able to get a good look.
It was a bit surprising, but also satisfying, even though (haven't checked since I've moved away from Newtucky) I'm nearly certain that they've moved to something else, most likely the ubiquitous Glock.

 

[phylodog]

FWIW, at least as recently as 2003, New Castle Sheriff's Department carried 1911s.
I did some service work on the cameras in the jail there and chatted a bit with a few of the deputies, so I was able to get a good look.
It was a bit surprising, but also satisfying, even though (haven't checked since I've moved away from Newtucky) I'm nearly certain that they've moved to something else, most likely the ubiquitous Glock.

There are definitely agencies out there carrying them. I carried one on Marion County SD for awhile and I believe Boone County SD is still carrying them. I like the 1911 and enjoyed owning/carrying them while I could.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

My comparison comment was directed at a few specific posts in this thread, we can disagree as to the validity/idiocy of those posts. I've yet to see a Glock pistol fire without something/someone pulling the trigger, claims that the design is unsafe are based on ignorance.

Oh, I certainly don't think the Glock is unsafe. I think there are safer designs, which come with their own trade offs, but that's not the same as being unsafe. The important part is to recognize the weaknesses of each design and compensate as much as possible. The WML brings utility to the table, but the old style holster would not allow something into the trigger once the gun was secured. That utility is probably worth the trade off, but the trade off does exist.

 

[Trigger Time]

Lights are getting smaller like the surefire xc1. I don't know how much testing it has undergone for a duty type function. I believe a light is a must for me a regular guy just using a gun for self defense, so it is an absolute must for professionals like police I BELIEVE. The reason I bring up the xc1 is it has a smaller footprint so there wouldn't be the same gap in the holsters. I'm not criticizing agencies that use streamliggt or x300, I have them too. I'm just speculating what the future will bring in the firearms industry.
Glocks in my opinion which only has to matter to me, are the best and safest pistols for self defense or offensive use on the market. I switched to soley glock for this reason and also ease of repair and maintenance.
Now knowing what happened in this freak accident we can and should find out what entered the holster and how in order to pull the trigger. Only because it will help it not happen again. But unless this officer intentionally had his gun out of the holster needlessly (which he didnt) or intentionally dropped a foreign object into his holster intentionally (with the current information we can't rule that out but it's 99% unlikely) then he wasn't at fault. Like others said, **** happens sometimes and it's just Murphy taking his share.
Even if it would have been negligent, what i or others think wouldn't have changed it or matter anyways. It's an interagency issue. I'm very happy that no fingerbanging happened not just because of the occasion on which it happened but also because it doesn't tarnish impd which I've come to learn over timd has one of the best training systems in the country for Leo's. That just makes our city better and im always for that

 

[Simon6101]

The Woman Deputy That was shot was a friend of mine and was sitting 4 chairs from me. If I had not gotten up to use the restroom then it would have been her husband that was sitting where she was when shot. The only thing I am thankful for in this situation is that my wife or son did not get hit.
What I am sad about is that immediately media and some agencies began to blame the Deputy for shooting herself. It is a little difficult to shoot through a chair and hit yourself in the knee.

Bad accident that should not have happened on the day we were paying tribute to a good Officer and Friend.