Mattis to step down.

[Libertarian01]

I believe that General Mattis is a man of genuine honesty, courage, and integrity. I also believe that he is of the mindset that to be safe we must be in control of everything. And while that may be true to an extent, I deeply disagree with that premise.

We were a safe nation before WWI. Nobody messed with us. We made our own messes and lived with them, and cleaned them up when we got around to it. When we got dragged into The Great War, we loaded up on boats, went "over there" kicked a**, took names, made heroes, and came home. Then guess what? We demilitarized and after a few years cleared off of the world stage. And we were safe.

In post WWI we had the Roaring 20's, the Great Depression, prohibition, and the repeal thereof. We made our own messes, again. We cleaned them up, again. And we left others alone. Then, on Dec 7th, 1941 we got caught with our pants down. The sleeping giant awoke and again went over there, kicked a** and came home. They got the first punch, we got the last.

But this time we didn't leave the world stage. Not only did we stay on it we pushed and shoved and jockeyed to be in the middle of it. We entered a cold war, we tore ourselves up with fear and bigotry exploited by the House Un-American Activities committee and Senator McCarthy's destruction of how many lives. In fear we can be at our worst.

We toppled a democratically elected Prime Minister in Iran and put a tyrant in charge, so long as he was our tyrant. We did horrible things in the name of our national security. We justified this by believing it was always for the greater good, to promote peace and "the American way" around the world, whatever that is. We chose stability over ideology.

I believe that Secretary Mattis holds some of these notions that for us to be strong we must be in control, be number one, be on top sticking our nose into everyone else's business. This is where I believe, on this lone issue, he is wrong. I believe the blowback created by all this interference does more harm (or at least equal harm) than good. Pulling out of Syria, and Afghanistan may let some bad people do some bad things, but they won't necessarily be hostile to us OR our interests if we don't muck around in their business. There were certainly despots and tyrants prior to WWI but they didn't fool with us because we didn't fool with them. We did our own thing, built our own factories, farmed our own fields, and let others do as they will. If they messed with us we woke up, did our business, and went back to bed.

I don't know that Trumps logic is in line with mine, but I do agree on pulling out and letting folks "over there" sort things out on their own. Whomever is standing at the end might not be our friends, but they'll still trade and do business as it's in their own self interest. And if they're truly bad their own people will rise up and do away with them in time, but we won't be drug into that quicksand. We never should have been.

Regards and Merry Christmas,

Doug

 

[jamil]

Review the indicated [strike]mixed metaphors[/strike] overwrought clichés and tell me again the message you're being given is honorable man doing what honor demands. Not buying it Padre

I don’t really expect you to. Try looking for the most likely thing he could mean, not the quickest meaning that you can technically apply which lets you call him out for heresy. Look, you don’t have to agree with his interpretation of why mattis might have resigned. But at least disagree with what he actually means.

 

[BugI02]

I don’t really expect you to. Try looking for the most likely thing he could mean, not the quickest meaning that you can technically apply which lets you call him out for heresy. Look, you don’t have to agree with his interpretation of why mattis might have resigned. But at least disagree with what he actually means.

I can't figure out what he actually means, so that's tough. What I actually mean is I see a man with a strong sense of personal honor who has just had enough. Mattis feels the President is making a bad mistake in relinquishing the Syrian theatre, cannot change the President's mind, and since he cannot support that policy and what he sees as the complications going forward he has elected to resign

Even trying to see through my basic Trumpophile inclination, I can't see this being as much indicative of the future of the Trump presidency as people would like it to be, although they will latch onto it in the hopes this is finally the last straw they're always hoping for. I'm not Nostradamus; with the forces arrayed against it most anything could be the end of his presidency but I can't predict what, nor do I think this is it. It could all blow up next month, or in 2020 or it could last a thousand years (Orange Hitler reference). What I don't like is people taking the principled personal sacrifice of a good man (who could serve as an example to others) and trying to twist it into some larger portent. Surely Mattis knew what he was getting into when he took the job, now he's gotten out with soul and honor intact. We should applaud him and be sorry to see him go, but he was not elected to determine the military aspect of foreign policy, only to execute it. Personally, I disagree with what I infer to be Mattis' assessment, that Syria is important enough to us geopolitically to expend more blood and treasure on it. I see no pathway to any strategic outcome we favor. You can argue that it will embolden the Russians or Iran, but our response to the Crimea and the feckless nuclear deal with Iran have already emboldened them. When you review that battlefield environment with a cold eye for the logistics you can see that is not the place where we're going to wring some of that boldness out of them

It just makes me crazy that one week we're supposed to destabilize Saudi Arabia merely because they killed an islamist political dissident masquerading as a WaPo columnist, and the next it is suddenly of existential importance to hold together some fever dream version of the Syria-that-could-be with a blank check for blood and treasure. It would have been better if they had gotten that particular religion before they shattered Libya. Trump may not know what to do about it, but he correctly senses that people are tired of war - the people at the sharp end most of all. As long as we maintain support to Israel, I don't much care what the rest of the ME does to itself. I'm sure we can deal with the pieces that remain after the dust settles. I think it's time to bring our people home from battlefields that make no sense, succor our wounded (both mentally and physically), rebuild our strength (both economically and militarily) and prepare for the next phase

If the people of the middle east admire and desire the American model of a free and open society, it is within their power to follow that path. If they lack the will, they'll live in some kind of Caliphate. We cannot and should not try to direct their path nor do the hard work for them. Perhaps they will only get it when they are staring down the abyss, perhaps they will never get it

 

[jamil]

I can't figure out what he actually means, so that's tough. What I actually mean is I see a man with a strong sense of personal honor who has just had enough. Mattis feels the President is making a bad mistake in relinquishing the Syrian theatre, cannot change the President's mind, and since he cannot support that policy and what he sees as the complications going forward he has elected to resign

Even trying to see through my basic Trumpophile inclination, I can't see this being as much indicative of the future of the Trump presidency as people would like it to be, although they will latch onto it in the hopes this is finally the last straw they're always hoping for. I'm not Nostradamus; with the forces arrayed against it most anything could be the end of his presidency but I can't predict what, nor do I think this is it. It could all blow up next month, or in 2020 or it could last a thousand years (Orange Hitler reference). What I don't like is people taking the principled personal sacrifice of a good man (who could serve as an example to others) and trying to twist it into some larger portent. Surely Mattis knew what he was getting into when he took the job, now he's gotten out with soul and honor intact. We should applaud him and be sorry to see him go, but he was not elected to determine the military aspect of foreign policy, only to execute it. Personally, I disagree with what I infer to be Mattis' assessment, that Syria is important enough to us geopolitically to expend more blood and treasure on it. I see no pathway to any strategic outcome we favor. You can argue that it will embolden the Russians or Iran, but our response to the Crimea and the feckless nuclear deal with Iran have already emboldened them. When you review that battlefield environment with a cold eye for the logistics you can see that is not the place where we're going to wring some of that boldness out of them

It just makes me crazy that one week we're supposed to destabilize Saudi Arabia merely because they killed an islamist political dissident masquerading as a WaPo columnist, and the next it is suddenly of existential importance to hold together some fever dream version of the Syria-that-could-be with a blank check for blood and treasure. It would have been better if they had gotten that particular religion before they shattered Libya. Trump may not know what to do about it, but he correctly senses that people are tired of war - the people at the sharp end most of all. As long as we maintain support to Israel, I don't much care what the rest of the ME does to itself. I'm sure we can deal with the pieces that remain after the dust settles. I think it's time to bring our people home from battlefields that make no sense, succor our wounded (both mentally and physically), rebuild our strength (both economically and militarily) and prepare for the next phase

If the people of the middle east admire and desire the American model of a free and open society, it is within their power to follow that path. If they lack the will, they'll live in some kind of Caliphate. We cannot and should not try to direct their path nor do the hard work for them. Perhaps they will only get it when they are staring down the abyss, perhaps they will never get it

Okay. Now we’re getting somewhere. You’re now disagreeing with what was actually said about Mathis’s motive. That’s fair.

 

[BugI02]

Yeah, I can easily see Mattis not wanting to risk the higher future cost to his men and the country if it all comes off the rails and we elect to go back in without bases or intelligence on the ground. It's just that in my opinion the solution to that problem is you resist the temptation to go back in and just wait for the train wreck to burn itself out. The worst thing I can say about Mattis is that he may be too wedded to the idea of countries as our allies that either do not share much overlap with our goals and are thus allies of convenience from their viewpoint (pretty much everybody in the ME, including Israel), or have allowed their military capabilities and political will to atrophy to the point that their being our allies is virtually meaningless (pretty much the whole EU and their colony Canada)

 

[dsol]

Mattis 2020

MadDog 2020 campaign signs!

 

[Kutnupe14]

MadDog 2020 campaign signs!

I wouldn't be opposed... BTW, the WH just announced that Mattis will be leaving the first of the year. I doubt the president like the resignation letter. Patrick Shanahan to be the acting SoD.

 

[HoughMade]

I wouldn't be opposed... BTW, the WH just announced that Mattis will be leaving the first of the year. I doubt the president like the resignation letter. Patrick Shanahan to be the acting SoD.

And the President’s ego strikes again.

 

[BugI02]

And the President’s ego strikes again.

Is it that, or could it be a case of ‘... the devil you know’? Could it be a desire to get a nominee confirmed before the next Congress is seated and the Democratic distractions start

 

[Kutnupe14]

And the President’s ego strikes again.

Absolutely... it reeks of "You can't quit, you're fired!" Rather than allow Mattis to stay in place and have a smooth transition, the president wants (or as it seem) to get in the last word.

 

[HoughMade]

Is it that, or could it be a case of ‘... the devil you know’? Could it be a desire to get a nominee confirmed before the next Congress is seated and the Democratic distractions start

Republicans still control the Senate. Regardless, leaving Jan. 1, not enough time.

No, I think this is, as Kut said, “you can’t quit, you’re fired.”

 

[KellyinAvon]

Here's the DoD bio on the new guy. He's definitely a guy you'd want in the room, not sure about at the head of the big table. MS-Mechanical Engineering and an MBA from MIT (translation: really freaking smart) and was involved with both mil (Airborne Laser? Dayyyum!) and civ areas. Still, evil contractor.

Patrick M. Shanahan became the 33rd Deputy Secretary of Defense on July 19, 2017.


Mr. Shanahan most recently served as Boeing senior vice president, Supply Chain & Operations. A Washington state native, Mr. Shanahan joined Boeing in 1986 and spent over three decades with the company. He previously worked as senior vice president of Commercial Airplane Programs, managing profit and loss for the 737, 747, 767, 777 and 787 programs and the operations at Boeing's principal manufacturing sites; as vice president and general manager of the 787 Dreamliner, leading the program during a critical development period; as vice president and general manager of Boeing Missile Defense Systems, overseeing the Ground-based Midcourse Defense system, Airborne Laser and Advanced Tactical Laser; and as vice president and general manager of Boeing Rotorcraft Systems, overseeing the Apache, Chinook and Osprey. He previously held leadership positions on the 757 program, 767 program and in the fabrication division.



Mr. Shanahan is a Royal Aeronautical Society Fellow, Society of Manufacturing Engineers Fellow and American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Associate Fellow. He served as a regent at the University of Washington for over five years.



Mr. Shanahan holds a Bachelor of Science degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Washington and two advanced degrees from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology: a Master of Science degree in mechanical engineering, and an MBA from MIT’s Sloan School of Management.

https://dod.defense.gov/About/Biographies/Biography-View/Article/1252116/patrick-shanahan/

 

[KG1]

He’s smarter than I am by a long shot. That’s probably why I didn’t get the call. He’s got enough degrees for like 5 people.

 

[Trigger Time]

Kut keeps talking about this sinking ship because of Trump.
How about the sunken ship way before trump ever took office!
This government has been ****ing us for a long time and has been mismanaged and taking on water. There is only so much one man can do to fight the "deep state".
There is no way the current United States as we have known it survives going down this current path and that has NOTHING to do with President Trump.
It says a lot when people want our President (regardless of who it is) to fail. Everyone also wants something for nothing anymore.
The words of JFK in his inaugural address come to mind and we have failed miserably since they were spoken!!!! " and so my fellow Americans, Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." - JFK 1961

 

[jamil]

Is it that, or could it be a case of ‘... the devil you know’? Could it be a desire to get a nominee confirmed before the next Congress is seated and the Democratic distractions start

Unlikely. I think we've gotten to know this particular 'devil' well enough to know he doesn't usually get that deep. With Trump it usually is what it looks like on the surface as long as you've surveyed the surface accurately. Ain't no 4d chess. More like shoots and ladders.

We all pretty much agree on the superficial facts. Mattis resigned, said he'd stay on until a successor was confirmed. He's only staying on until year's end. The in-between is most likely what it looks like. Mattis is seen by Trump as not loyal. Therefore he must go. I don't think they'll be able to put put confirmation hearings together in time for this congress.

 

[jamil]

Republicans still control the Senate. Regardless, leaving Jan. 1, not enough time.

No, I think this is, as Kut said, “you can’t quit, you’re fired.”

Yep. Pretty much a loyalty thing.

 

[BugI02]

Republicans still control the Senate. Regardless, leaving Jan. 1, not enough time.

No, I think this is, as Kut said, “you can’t quit, you’re fired.”

Is that all that's necessary? So what happened on Obamacare repeal and very nearly happened on the Kavanaugh nomination, hmmm? Does that mean things other than sitting members can affect the course of senate action?

I still think there is something to be said for the idea of filling the position during this relatively quiet time of familiar adversaries (which would make vote counting easier) before the ****storm of Democratic control of the House breaks. You are correct that the R's control the senate now and the fact that they would control it slightly better on or after 3 Jan 19 would not be an argument in favor of Trump waiting until the time Mattis chose. i'm sure the decision was not free of pique, just as I'm equally sure it was not entirely driven by pique

 

[wagyu52]

I’ve always had the attitude if you are leaving it’s better that you go than hang around after you’ve given notice, especially in a high profile job where a disgruntled employee can cause serious damage.
Seen plenty of employers cash someone out and walk them to the door than let them stay after giving notice. Especially with a resignation letter like Mattis gave, like him or not he needed to go ASAP just smart business.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I’ve always had the attitude if you are leaving it’s better that you go than hang around after you’ve given notice, especially in a high profile job where a disgruntled employee can cause serious damage.
Seen plenty of employers cash someone out and walk them to the door than let them stay after giving notice. Especially with a resignation letter like Mattis gave, like him or not he needed to go ASAP just smart business.

Mattis disagreed with the Syrian pullout, yet still did as the president asked and signed the order. While generally, I agree with your sentiment, I hold the belief that Mattis is of impeccable character and wouldn't be the type to sabotage the president's plans out of spite, especially considering if he was one to do such, it would make more sense for him to stay on, and work to undermine things he disagreed with. The fact that he chose to leave because he can't continue serving with someone he does not share like mind, is noteworthy.

 

[MarkC]

Mattis disagreed with the Syrian pullout, yet still did as the president asked and signed the order. While generally, I agree with your sentiment, I hold the belief that Mattis is of impeccable character and wouldn't be the type to sabotage the president's plans out of spite, especially considering if he was one to do such, it would make more sense for him to stay on, and work to undermine things he disagreed with. The fact that he chose to leave because he can't continue serving with someone he does not share like mind, is noteworthy.

I don't always agree, but I think this is spot on, and commend Gen. Mattis for doing the right thing while maintaining his integrity.