Modern Samurai Project Black Belt Standards

[cedartop]

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Which of the standards are 7 feet? Regardless, if you have allowed an armed assailant to close within 7 feet without recognizing/responding, you have likely failed because you are shot/stabbed if they have even a basic degree of competence.

No one in this thread said anything about not training. Some of us just think that that time/money can be applied better than trying to run stationary presentation drills at gamer speeds. It is awesome if you can and I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying that my current needs are way better suited by working things like moving and shooting, awareness, retention, low light, FoF etc.

Not saying that those things may not be important. They may be and I have trained them all because we don't know what our fight will look like, but we can get a good idea. I asked Tom Givens yesterday how many of his 60+ successful student gunfights included shooting while moving. He said one that he knew of. There were some that took a step off the line of force while drawing and then quickly ended the fight with one or more well placed shots. There was also at least one I know of where the good guy ran to cover before firing. IIRC only one involved actual physical contact and that was incidental. Also I think none were what people think of when they think of low light. Some were at night, but in well lit areas like parking lots. What I am getting at is that in almost all of these cases of amazing success most were won with some level of awareness followed by a fast presentation and well placed shots. That is how I feel these standards can be relevant.

 

[rhino]

Why do you think I have something to gain? I was having a discussion about a topic with some people of like and disagreeing minds.

That turned into straw men, insults, bluster and Mano y Mano challenges.

If you think that’s a good way to argue, you do you.

I don't think have anything to gain from it, and in fact I thought I was clear that I believe that there is nothing to gain.

However, when someone does or says something, they usually do it for a reason that benefits them in some way. I was curious how you thought you would benefit.

 

[chezuki]

The last carry gun match I had a pretty decent night. I’d have won the match if it weren’t for this one overly-emotional guy who was just faster and more accurate.

https://www.practiscore.com/results/new/63226?q_result=0&q_division=0

 

[rhino]

Not saying that those things may not be important. They may be and I have trained them all because we don't know what our fight will look like, but we can get a good idea. I asked Tom Givens yesterday how many of his 60+ successful student gunfights included shooting while moving. He said one that he knew of. There were some that took a step off the line of force while drawing and then quickly ended the fight with one or more well placed shots. There was also at least one I know of where the good guy ran to cover before firing. IIRC only one involved actual physical contact and that was incidental. Also I think none were what people think of when they think of low light. Some were at night, but in well lit areas like parking lots. What I am getting at is that in almost all of these cases of amazing success most were won with some level of awareness followed by a fast presentation and well placed shots. That is how I feel these standards can be relevant.

My favorite is the convenience store lady who side stepped behind the display of chips, retrieved her pistol, and then solved the problem.

 

[Fargo]

I might be able to do a accomplish some of these on a good day, but it would take some real practice to do it consistently and on-demand. I definitely believe there is merit in being as fast and accurate as possible in a defensive situation.

The chances of me needing to defend myself with a pistol are extremely low. Chances of needing to do so with a sub-second draw and/or reload are exponentially lower.

With that said, I still carry and strive to perform all aspects of doing so to the best of my ability. There’s no magic number that equals “good enough”, but any goal you work toward above your skill set will push you to improve.

Makes sense, thx.

 

[Anima mundi]

LOL, so Cedartop, Jackson and Rhino have not made drawstroke a priority?

Still no word on whether you can run them or not and you are a USPSA master.

Arbitrary standards are, well, arbitrary.

Mischaracterizing what was said in this thread as that drawstroke shouldn’t be a priority is just ridiculous.

All standards are arbitrary my dude, they exist only to compare relative performance among a group of individuals. Regardless, would you really argue that time is irrelevant in a gunfight?

 

[jsharmon7]

After reading the responses and discussion from a lot of folks who I respect very much as trainers and life-long students, I was having a ponder.

It seems the issue is what is “necessary,” or achievable, or realistic, or a worthwile pursuit of skills given budget and time. And comparing them to a martial arts belt system is a unique view. So what are white belt skills? Purple belt skills? It seems like one should focus on mastering the skills of their level. If you‘re a “blue belt” gun handler, it seems less important to worry about these standards. These are like the “flying omoplata” of gunfighting. If you’ve mastered everything else then have at it. Sure, it’s a good thing to strive for, just like some advanced BJJ skills. But it’s probably pretty arbitrary as any kind of “standard.” I would imagine mindset trumps these kinds of standards anyway, but that’s a different discussion.

I am not an expert, and do not play one on TV. These are only my observations from the outside.

 

[Indyal]

Meh. I am looking for 143.

 

[riverman67]

The last carry gun match I had a pretty decent night. I’d have won the match if it weren’t for this one overly-emotional guy who was just faster and more accurate.

https://www.practiscore.com/results/new/63226?q_result=0&q_division=0

I was right on your heels with my dot gun. Im enjoying the crap out of those matches it's a different kind of test.

 

[Coach]

So many here know I like following different trainers standards and COF. Some are relatively easy, some doable, and some extremely difficult. It seems that there are more and more trainers out there giving out coins for passing certain tests or standards. Heck, I heard even Tom Givens is giving out a coin for the Casino drill now. Anyway, during the winter I took a red dot pistol class from Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai Project. I took this class about a month after the Gabe White class. Yes, Gabe has some pretty tough standards too that I wrote about in my review of that class. At the time I took the MSP class we ran some of his drills but he didn't have them codified into these Black Belt standards yet. I will be interested to see who gets patches for these. As I see them, they are pretty tough. From his Instagram,

Bill Drill from concealment at 7 yards in 2 seconds or less.

1 shot Alpha from concealment at 7 yards in 1 second or less.

3&2 drill from concealment at 3 yards. 3 hits to Alpha, 2 to 3X5 card on head 2 seconds or less.

1 shot from concealment to Alpha at 25 yards in 1.5 second or less.

As usual there will be a lot of people who say they can meet these standards, but as I have found (as well as others I know, you know who you are) actually performing them on demand in front of a crowd can be another matter entirely.

They are all very tough. No doubt and that was universally agreed upon I think.

1 shot from concealment to Alpha at 25 yards in 1.5 second or less. Check. Best one was 1.37 seconds

1 shot Alpha from concealment at 7 yards in 1 second or less. Check 0.99

3&2 drill from concealment at 3 yards. 3 hits to Alpha, 2 to 3X5 card on head 2 seconds or less. check. 2.0 thought I could do this faster but not today

Bill Drill from concealment at 7 yards in 2 seconds or less. Nope. 2.2 seconds. Trigger pressing speed is not my strength. I have been working on it in dry practice.

So somewhere between black belt and candy stripper.

Planning to add some reps on these to my Dry practice routine. See if I can get from ragged edge to under control and on demand.

 

[riverman67]

They are all very tough. No doubt and that was universally agreed upon I think.

1 shot from concealment to Alpha at 25 yards in 1.5 second or less. Check. Best one was 1.37 seconds

1 shot Alpha from concealment at 7 yards in 1 second or less. Check 0.99

3&2 drill from concealment at 3 yards. 3 hits to Alpha, 2 to 3X5 card on head 2 seconds or less. check. 2.0 thought I could do this faster but not today

Bill Drill from concealment at 7 yards in 2 seconds or less. Nope. 2.2 seconds. Trigger pressing speed is not my strength. I have been working on it in dry practice.

So somewhere between black belt and candy stripper.

Planning to add some reps on these to my Dry practice routine. See if I can get from ragged edge to under control and on demand.

I'm going to do this Tuesday if I can sneak it in between thunderstorms.
I'm sure I won't be checking as many off the list.
But it will give me a base line.
Then I'll do a little dry work and see what I can improve.

 

[Coach]

I'm going to do this Tuesday if I can sneak it in between thunderstorms.
I'm sure I won't be checking as many off the list.
But it will give me a base line.
Then I'll do a little dry work and see what I can improve.

None of them are easy but the 25 yards is the easiest for me. 3X2 and Bill Drill would be easier with single action gun. But still tough. I meant to take a holster and do them from appendix as well but I left the holster at home. A theme for me.

 

[cedartop]

After reading the responses and discussion from a lot of folks who I respect very much as trainers and life-long students, I was having a ponder.

It seems the issue is what is “necessary,” or achievable, or realistic, or a worthwile pursuit of skills given budget and time. And comparing them to a martial arts belt system is a unique view. So what are white belt skills? Purple belt skills? It seems like one should focus on mastering the skills of their level. If you‘re a “blue belt” gun handler, it seems less important to worry about these standards. These are like the “flying omoplata” of gunfighting. If you’ve mastered everything else then have at it. Sure, it’s a good thing to strive for, just like some advanced BJJ skills. But it’s probably pretty arbitrary as any kind of “standard.” I would imagine mindset trumps these kinds of standards anyway, but that’s a different discussion.

I am not an expert, and do not play one on TV. These are only my observations from the outside.

Unless someone is advocating total incompetence (and no one in this thread is) I don't think there are wrong answers. I look at it this way, do I really want the doctor who barely passed medical school operating on me? Do I want a bottom tier lawyer defending me in court? Not really.

Another way to look at it. Who in this thread would you pick to defend your family in your place. I can think of two guys right off the top of my head. Not just because I trust them and know their mindset, but also because I know their skill level. Heck, it wouldn't just be someone to pick in your place, maybe it is someone who is popping caps at a bad guy while your family is downrange. Do you really want that to be someone who meets some minimum?

It is my opinion that many people who carry a firearm for defense of themselves or others simply do not fathom the gravity of the situation. You don't have to be the best, but for the stakes involve we should always be trying to be better.

ps You is generic, not specific to any individual here.

 

[Fargo]

All standards are arbitrary my dude, they exist only to compare relative performance among a group of individuals. Regardless, would you really argue that time is irrelevant in a gunfight?

No, all I said was that it is not the only thing that matters.

Coach, that is very impressive shooting.

Cedartop, I'm not advocating for incompetence or anything like that. My argument is that you need to achieve basic competence in a whole bunch of areas before dedicating a whole bunch of your training time to one aspect.

 

[Fargo]

I don't think have anything to gain from it, and in fact I thought I was clear that I believe that there is nothing to gain.

However, when someone does or says something, they usually do it for a reason that benefits them in some way. I was curious how you thought you would benefit.

No benefit that I am aware of, I am just not a very tractable person.

 

[Denny347]

This "discussion" is amusing. Lots of focus on fractions of a second. How many hours of training are needed to shave 2 tenths of reaction time? Are those hours dedicated to that wisely spent? Maybe, if you have the excess time. For others, maybe not. How about accurate fire while moving? You see these ultra fast comp shooters and admire their talent. But that talent doesn't keep them from crapping their pants when faced with a situation requiring those same skills. Who cares how fast you can shoot if you can't perform under extreme stress. Can you draw and deliver ACCURATE fire while facing a direct threat? Can you do so while someone shooting back at you?

 

[cedartop]

This "discussion" is amusing. Lots of focus on fractions of a second. How many hours of training are needed to shave 2 tenths of reaction time? Are those hours dedicated to that wisely spent? Maybe, if you have the excess time. For others, maybe not. How about accurate fire while moving? You see these ultra fast comp shooters and admire their talent. But that talent doesn't keep them from crapping their pants when faced with a situation requiring those same skills. Who cares how fast you can shoot if you can't perform under extreme stress. Can you draw and deliver ACCURATE fire while facing a direct threat? Can you do so while someone shooting back at you?

Well if you can't do it without anyone shooting back at you, you damn well can't do it with someone shooting back at you.

I am sure I don't have to tell the story of Jim Cirillo stating he felt far more stress in competition than any of his many gunfights.

I won't argue your overall point, but how does someone not in a profession where you may be subjected to it know how they will react under that kind of stress? In hand to hand skills we can test ourselves against resisting opponents. The closest we can legally get with guns is FOF.

 

[Denny347]

I am sure I don't have to tell the story of Jim Cirillo stating he felt far more stress in competition than any of his many gunfights.

That doesn't make much sense. I have yet to hear of someone developing PTSD from competing.

I won't argue your overall point, but how does someone not in a profession where you may be subjected to it know how they will react under that kind of stress? In hand to hand skills we can test ourselves against resisting opponents. The closest we can legally get with guns is FOF.

BINGO!!! Sim rounds are as close as we can get and they do a pretty good job.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I am sure I don't have to tell the story of Jim Cirillo stating he felt far more stress in competition than any of his many gunfights.

That doesn't make much sense. I have yet to hear of someone developing PTSD from competing.

Social stress and survival stress are different, and inoculation to one doesn't work against the other because different parts of the brain control each. Audie Murphy is well known for being unflappable in combat but being incredibly nervous about public speaking. Cirillo was likely the same, either naturally wired for or experience inoculated against survival stress but less resilient to social stress.

Sim rounds work for survival stress inoculation because their is physical pain penalties and lizard brain doesn't know the difference.

All standards are arbitrary...

No, they aren't. Probably a rabbit hole not worth going down, but bonafide requirements, requirements based on actual data, and pulling something out of my butt because it sounds good aren't the same.

candy stripper.

Did not need that visual.

As far as a fast draw, it's better than a slow draw but not the decisive factor. You are never going to be fast enough to outdraw a drawn gun without the tactics that go with it (disguised draw, distraction techniques, etc.) These standards aren't about self-defense nor do I think they pretend to be. I asked if they had some certain meaning in competition and haven't seen an answer to that. They are, IMO, marketing. That's fine, just recognize it for what it is. Technical skill is excellent, the more the better. Doesn't mean there aren't a lot of highly skilled shooters dead with their guns in their holster. Be well rounded, take realistic FoF, and never forget Murphy is out there and he loves to screw with you.

 

[jkdbjj]

I agree.

Little off topic, I remember reading where Bill Jordan could draw and hit in .27 of a second. Shot aspirin off of golf balls too. He did an in court demostration of fast draw and blank fire in the murder trial of Ed Cantrell and testified (and I am paraphrasing) that Ed was faster than him on most days. Lots of people had heard of Bill Jordan, who knew of Ed Cantrell except the locals? That case had Cantrell drawing his pistol while sitting in the front seat of a car, shooting a guy in the backseat as I recall. Cantrell was acquitted btw. Lots of fast folks out there, not all shoot competition.

Social stress and survival stress are different, and inoculation to one doesn't work against the other because different parts of the brain control each. Audie Murphy is well known for being unflappable in combat but being incredibly nervous about public speaking. Cirillo was likely the same, either naturally wired for or experience inoculated against survival stress but less resilient to social stress.

Sim rounds work for survival stress inoculation because their is physical pain penalties and lizard brain doesn't know the difference.



No, they aren't. Probably a rabbit hole not worth going down, but bonafide requirements, requirements based on actual data, and pulling something out of my butt because it sounds good aren't the same.




Did not need that visual.

As far as a fast draw, it's better than a slow draw but not the decisive factor. You are never going to be fast enough to outdraw a drawn gun without the tactics that go with it (disguised draw, distraction techniques, etc.) These standards aren't about self-defense nor do I think they pretend to be. I asked if they had some certain meaning in competition and haven't seen an answer to that. They are, IMO, marketing. That's fine, just recognize it for what it is. Technical skill is excellent, the more the better. Doesn't mean there aren't a lot of highly skilled shooters dead with their guns in their holster. Be well rounded, take realistic FoF, and never forget Murphy is out there and he loves to screw with you.