NASCAR Complaints

[thunderchicken]

I do so enjoy watching a bunch of externally identical cars turn left for a couple of hours.

Actually, my complaints about NASCAR faded when different activities got their own television outlets. When other good stuff was pre-empted by the end of a NASCAR race on broadcast television back in the 1970s, it irritated me. Same thing for ballgames that ran overtime. Feh.

Drag racing a lot more fun to watch! And by that I mean the sport where vehicles try to move 1/4 mile faster than the other vehicle does, not a foot race among cross-dressers.

I was a huge NASCAR fan as a kid back in the 80s & 90s but a number of new rules has pretty much ruined what NASCAR was. Other than safety upgrades their chassis is really pretty dated..at least last I looked at one. It has been a few years but last I looked under one, they still had a truck arm rear suspension. When they tried the "car of tomorrow" I saw them as lost and grasping at straws to bring new excitement.


By then we had gotten involved in drag racing and I have in large part lost most interest in NAPCAR

 

[thunderchicken]

Thanks. I had heard some things were changing but I honestly have lost a lot of enthusiasm for organized corporate racing.

Funny how big money always has a way of taking a good racing organization and running it off the rails. They think the big money will drive the popularity up and draw more fans which is a huge business goal, but tends to kill the competition.

 

[thunderchicken]

They lost me when they went to tube chassis cars. It lost the whole image when they did that, that's when they started their fall down the corporate trail where we ended up with intermissions and other such nonsense. As much as I'd like to go to Daytona for the opener I just can't bring myself to support them.

They've had tube chassis cars since at least the early to mid 80s.
Making everything fit the same templates is what drove me away. And the intermissions suck as well as their qualifying format.

 

[churchmouse]

I was a huge NASCAR fan as a kid back in the 80s & 90s but a number of new rules has pretty much ruined what NASCAR was. Other than safety upgrades their chassis is really pretty dated..at least last I looked at one. It has been a few years but last I looked under one, they still had a truck arm rear suspension. When they tried the "car of tomorrow" I saw them as lost and grasping at straws to bring new excitement.


By then we had gotten involved in drag racing and I have in large part lost most interest in NAPCAR

I grew up around racers. Guys that could and would take any and everything and make it better/faster or completely screw it up. The last part being part of the journey. Uncles were mostly car guys/bike guys. Neighbor that let me spend time in his garage raced sprint cars. I was immersed in it. And growing up 1 block from the back gates of the 500 did not slow my desire's. My generation was filled with motor heads.
This steered me into racing at all levels. My friends got me involved with the Indy cars and some serious SCCA GTP cars. These shops were a 5 minute roll in any direction from my house. Yes, we were all ate up with NASCAR.

NoisyChicken ( ) nailed it. To much manipulation from those who were not true blood racers. Same has happened to Indy. Non-racer corporate types selling a product they do not understand. We all saw this coming in the 80's with the new rules. Manipulating design to favor 1 chassis/engine over another. Some say it is the natural progression of things. Ask George Watson about this. He had some very profound views/opinions about it. That man was a god among men in the engineering world.

When you have an entire field filled with cookie cutter cars that are regulated so closely that the race i won from the pit box.......Well, who cares anymore.
When you put fenders on an open wheel car.......well, who cares any more and the crowds show it.

 

[thunderchicken]

Here's a couple thoughts.. The cars should be required to use a factory nose, hood, roof and deck lid skin. Limit the amount of front fender flare, set a min/max ride height. Spec spoiler, lose the chin spoiler. As for engines well how about GM runs LS, Ford runs Coyote and other brands can submit similar crate engines for approval.

Then look at whether to keep the segments or shorten the races from 500 miles or ???

Keeping in mind many fans are just there for the party go ahead and give them something else to go watch in the infield while the race is going on. Draw in the youngsters with a drifting course or ?? Rather than just using the grounds for parking.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Any of y'all been to an F1 race? I saw 2 of them when they were in Indy. Now THAT was cool. Not the same as TV, for sure. I'd go again, if they came back,.

We used to have tickets on the front stretch for Indy back in the 1990's. It got so bad, they would let ticket holders sit ANYWHERE in the grandstands to make it look full. We finally just stopped getting tickets. My FIL would read the paper during the race...

I went to an F1 race when it was here and while the cars were cool, and the crowd was certainly different, the race itself was boring to me. The only lead changes took place in the pits. Seemed like there were only a couple of dominant (read $$$$$) drivers/teams at the time, and nobody else had a chance.

 

[churchmouse]

I went to an F1 race when it was here and while the cars were cool, and the crowd was certainly different, the race itself was boring to me. The only lead changes took place in the pits. Seemed like there were only a couple of dominant (read $$$$$) drivers/teams at the time, and nobody else had a chance.

Thats is what NASCAR and INDY were supposedly doing. Tony George set out to accomplish this. Set the money teams back to basics. Let teams build their own engines etc. But like big Gov. intervention it went sour.

When you show up to race and they hand you your rear springs and shocks package...........who cares anymore.
When you show up to race and they hand you your ECU before you can even start the kit (Revel..??) car.....who cares anymore.

 

[thunderchicken]

I grew up around racers. Guys that could and would take any and everything and make it better/faster or completely screw it up. The last part being part of the journey. Uncles were mostly car guys/bike guys. Neighbor that let me spend time in his garage raced sprint cars. I was immersed in it. And growing up 1 block from the back gates of the 500 did not slow my desire's. My generation was filled with motor heads.
This steered me into racing at all levels. My friends got me involved with the Indy cars and some serious SCCA GTP cars. These shops were a 5 minute roll in any direction from my house. Yes, we were all ate up with NASCAR.

NoisyChicken ( ) nailed it. To much manipulation from those who were not true blood racers. Same has happened to Indy. Non-racer corporate types selling a product they do not understand. We all saw this coming in the 80's with the new rules. Manipulating design to favor 1 chassis/engine over another. Some say it is the natural progression of things. Ask George Watson about this. He had some very profound views/opinions about it. That man was a god among men in the engineering world.

When you have an entire field filled with cookie cutter cars that are regulated so closely that the race i won from the pit box.......Well, who cares anymore.
When you put fenders on an open wheel car.......well, who cares any more and the crowds show it.

Although our ages spereate us by generations we are cut fron the same cloth. Dad started racing street cars and stock cars back in the late 60s and early 70s so I grew up with this stuff. I got the addiction honestly. I remeber when I was really little, I thought the race auction Dave Dayton used to put on was part of the Thanksgiving weekend. Back then it was the closest thing there was to PRI that I knew of.


By comparison take Promod, when it started out it was a bit of a freak show. But everyone was running huge amounts of nitrous. Thrn a dude rolled into a race with a big alcohol injected blower combo. Everyone went nuts, the other racers saw the writing on the wall and the cost going throughvthe roof. Just ask Pat "popeye" Musi, he lead a number of racers to the officials and told them go tell that guy with the supercharged red car to load up and go home. But they let him stay and now Promod is insanely expensive and dang near all supercharged or turbo cars.

Money buys horsepower and better equipment. So natural progression leads to driving up costs to keep up and driving out those who can't keep up. Dog eat dog business.

Racing is very much about putting on a show. More competitors who have a real chance of winning will put on a better show. Look at Indy, 33 cars but hoe many really have a chance at winning and how many are filler aka also rans because they gotta fill the grid?

 

[thunderchicken]

Thats is what NASCAR and INDY were supposedly doing. Tony George set out to accomplish this. Set the money teams back to basics. Let teams build their own engines etc. But like big Gov. intervention it went sour.

When you show up to race and they hand you your rear springs and shocks package...........who cares anymore.
When you show up to race and they hand you your ECU before you can even start the kit (Revel..??) car.....who cares anymore.

Spec series racing sucks for what is supposed to be a top tier series

 

[churchmouse]

Although our ages spereate us by generations we are cut fron the same cloth. Dad started racing street cars and stock cars back in the late 60s and early 70s so I grew up with this stuff. I got the addiction honestly. I remeber when I was really little, I thought the race auction Dave Dayton used to put on was part of the Thanksgiving weekend. Back then it was the closest thing there was to PRI that I knew of.


By comparison take Promod, when it started out it was a bit of a freak show. But everyone was running huge amounts of nitrous. Thrn a dude rolled into a race with a big alcohol injected blower combo. Everyone went nuts, the other racers saw the writing on the wall and the cost going throughvthe roof. Just ask Pat "popeye" Musi, he lead a number of racers to the officials and told them go tell that guy with the supercharged red car to load up and go home. But they let him stay and now Promod is insanely expensive and dang near all supercharged or turbo cars.

Money buys horsepower and better equipment. So natural progression leads to driving up costs to keep up and driving out those who can't keep up. Dog eat dog business.

Racing is very much about putting on a show. More competitors who have a real chance of winning will put on a better show. Look at Indy, 33 cars but hoe many really have a chance at winning and how many are filler aka also rans because they gotta fill the grid?

Much truth here.

Just refer to the simplicity of the cars the Street Outlaws were running when that series started and look at them now. I am sure your series started out close and has progressed in the same manner.

 

[eldirector]

I went to an F1 race when it was here and while the cars were cool, and the crowd was certainly different, the race itself was boring to me. The only lead changes took place in the pits. Seemed like there were only a couple of dominant (read $$$$$) drivers/teams at the time, and nobody else had a chance.

We went the year it rained. Now THAT was racing. They swapped tires for more tread, and lap times hardly changed. Not a ton of lead changes (Ferrari dominated), but a ton of action farther back. The Porsche / BMW race was also a lot of fun.

I currently follow Ultra4 offroad racing. Most of the rules are around safety. While there are a handful of teams that always sit near the top, it is still a pretty open field. There are WILDLY varied designs for the cars. Gas vs. Diesel, IFS/IRS vs. straight-axle, 2-seaters with co-pilots vs. single-seat, big honking V8's vs, turbo 6, and even twin-turbo 4's. The races a freaking tough, with the King of the Hammers only having about 30% of the entries even finishing within max time.

 

[thunderchicken]

Much truth here.

Just refer to the simplicity of the cars the Street Outlaws were running when that series started and look at them now. I am sure your series started out close and has progressed in the same manner.

Very much so. Our series staryed out early 2000s as a prostreet class. Rules were basically..big tire, big cubic inch NA or nitrous back half cars. Had to have turn signals, passenger seat, stock appearing interior, no tube chassis cars, fiberglass was limited to hood and deck lid only, plated and insured (though that dropped after 1yr). Of course rules had to be opened up to allow more combos that wanted to come and paly.

 

[rhino]

IF YOU'RE NOT FIRST, YOU'RE LAST! SHAKE 'N' BAKE!

 

[JHB]

Out law the Hemi, tube chassis, generic body's, and then restrictor plates no thanks . I liked it when part of Daytona was still run on the beach.

 

[churchmouse]

Out law the Hemi, tube chassis, generic body's, and then restrictor plates no thanks . I liked it when part of Daytona was still run on the beach.

Some of this crop of drivers could not run on the beach. And the enviro wacko's would have a fit.

 

[terrehautian]

I liked nascar when you didn’t need a drafting partner and a multi car team to get to the front. The old days of dale sr, rusty wallace, Darrell waltrip, etc. The only nascar race I ever want to see anymore is Bristol at night. That is pretty much the only track where at the end you can have your front end taped up and still win it. It would be awesome to see races held on non paved tracks (Daytona beach and eldora as two locations).

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Some of this crop of drivers could not run on the beach. And the enviro wacko's would have a fit.

I thought switching to ethanol was to appease the enviro wackos...

 

[churchmouse]

I thought switching to ethanol was to appease the enviro wackos...

Have you ever seen enough be that.....enough...???

If they ran back on the beach the enviros would come crawling out of their roach holes.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Have you ever seen enough be that.....enough...???

If they ran back on the beach the enviros would come crawling out of their roach holes.

Probably... there's likely some kind of endangered sand flea that might be affected.

As an aside, do they still allow cars to drive on the beach in Daytona? (Regular cars, not race cars.)

 

[BugI02]

All the complaints can be boiled down to one thing

Money ruins racing

As soon as potential prize money gets high enough, or money from sponsors who crave exposure and association with the cachet of racing gets lucrative enough, the big money operations move in

Unfortunately, in some respects, big money/cutting edge tech make things interesting also. In the 90s I did some technical work in racing, most notably with (the old) IMSA. Now, I believe NASCAR was still running carburetor engines but the ability to field different cars was still alive and engine development still an art. I worked at a pre-season test day at Daytona for both NASCAR and IMSA. The closed body prototypes ran up into the 250s and could use just about any line, while NASCAR was struggling to get beyond the 210s and were forced to take lower lines. It became a bit of a farce with NASCAR drivers having difficulty adjusting to being signaled about overtaking traffic while running flat out, and the overtaking not being a gradual thing. The two groups eventually stratified and seldom wanted to be on the track together

It was quite a lesson in what racing could be when all the stops were out, and I loved the technology; but neither series had competitive little guys, even back then

At the time I was active, Toyota was running a 2.1 liter inline four, twin sequentially turbocharged and making well north of 1500hp. The little guy will never be able to compete with that

I switched to SCCA club racing and had a ball for a few years, even did some driving (of other peoples cars) and some tech (enforcing the rules instead of 'massaging' them) then eventually ran out of the free time to keep at it. Great friends, great memories and the second life lesson - that the people who race because it's in their blood rather than as a business decision are the people I want to hang out with