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New DNR rules at all Indiana state ranges with explanation
- Thread starter jedi
- Start date
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So nice to have a 225 yard range, in the front yard.
Keep rubbing it in.
eldirector
Grandmaster
So I went back and read page one.
How is one supposed to get your daily carry into the range to practice? Coon finger it in the parking lot? They got sand barrels for that? Do they WANT a ND? Does it need to be cased? If so, WTF is cased better than holstered?
Oh, good Lord:
Sorry, just
. Channeling my inner curmudgeon today.
Their house, their rules... oh, wait....
How is one supposed to get your daily carry into the range to practice? Coon finger it in the parking lot? They got sand barrels for that? Do they WANT a ND? Does it need to be cased? If so, WTF is cased better than holstered?
Oh, good Lord:
Aren't they always loaded?
Sorry, just
. Channeling my inner curmudgeon today. Their house, their rules... oh, wait....
I think the no guns in holsters is to prevent injury from ND while practicing fast draw.
[video=youtube;4LE32Riyugg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LE32Riyugg[/video]
At Sugar Ridge the young lady has said nothing to me about having a gun on my side and the older gentleman threatened me with fines and banning. And fill out your range card completely before firing your first shot.
[video=youtube;4LE32Riyugg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LE32Riyugg[/video]
At Sugar Ridge the young lady has said nothing to me about having a gun on my side and the older gentleman threatened me with fines and banning. And fill out your range card completely before firing your first shot.
They didn't say anything as I was shooting on Saturday, but they didn't want firearms in front of the bench, so no closer than 25, even if everyone is ok and moved up.
Updated Post #1 with the following:
UPDATE 1 - JUNE 17, 2017
I was able to talk face to face with Tom Despot who is the Region North Manager (Winamac is under his supervision; He is Winamac's boss and in turn he reports to Indy). He was at today's NWI INGO/WINAMAC DNR Youth Event. The issue of the no holstered sidearms comes down to liability.
WINAMAC has be blessed in that it have never had a reported shooting accident in all the years it has been operational. Sadly that is not the case with other DNR facilities in the state especially in southern Indiana. This year so far there have been 2 reported shooting accidents at DNR ranges in southern Indiana. DNR HQ's concern is that these and other incidents like it will bring someone to sue them due to unsafe range conditions. I'm not an ATTY and one can argue all day that it is NOT the state's fault that person A shot person B while person B was downrange changing a target when person A decided to handle their firearm at the bench. We have all see this happen at the state ranges and we have all done a variety of things to ensure it does not occur when we are around. (ie. NWI INGO just takes over the 25 yard range and we "police" ourselves to ensure hot/cold range, etc.)
Why would person B sue the state of Indiana and not person A (the person who accidentally shot them)? Who has the deeper pockets? The state off course. So DNR HQ is trying to mitigate this risk. Worse case scenario for them is Person B does sue them and they lose and the state pays out $$$. Next thing the state legislature is going to do is ask why do we have state ranges if they are going to cost us $$$ in civil suits. Just shut them all down and no more worries. This is exactly what DNR HQ is trying to avoid.
So why the rule? Well in the ideal world DNR HQ would like to put 1 RO for every bench they have on the range so that everyone is watched 24/7 and there are zero accidents. Financially that is impossible. At WINAMAC alone it would require a staff of 13 for all the benches. So the more fiscal approach is one RO for all 4 ranches and that RO's job is to make sure everyone is safe and not handling firearms when people are downrange. The quickest and easiest way for the RO to do that is knowing no one is carrying so the only firearms would be those on the benches. Makes life much easier to see if anyone is about to touch a weapon.
So why the rule NOW in 2017? Well as stated above they have had recorded incidents of shooting accidents at some of the ranges. The other thing they have begun to see is a lot more "new NEW" gun owners. People who literally have just come from walmart with their first rifle, a box of ammo and are shooting for the first time. Recall your first time shooting. Did you know all the safety rules? Did you know range dos/donots especially with other people (strangers) on the benches next to you?
The influx of new shooters has been seen mainly at the modern ranges (ie. deer creek, willow slew, Kingsburry) where ROs man the places 24/7 like hawks. But as those new ranges have become popular and over crowded the smaller ranges like WINAMAC which where once just used by deer hunters who were sighting in their rifles are beginning to see more and more "city folks" and "1st time shooters" who are not familiar with all the rules.
So that is the detailed deeper explanation by the regional manager who is in charge of NORTH Indiana. He did not make the rule it came from DNR HQ in Indy. At first he too was very upset about the rule but the more he thought about it and the goal of not having any accidental shootings like southern Indiana has had the more he agrees with it in the fact that it helps control where the firearms are at so the ROs have an easier time ensuring no one is handling weapons when people are downrange.
So the next question is "Is this legal? Are they stepping on my rights? What if I refuse?"
Like I said I'm not an ATTY but my take is this DNR rule is similar to "court rules" in that it is NOT illegal (ie. you are not breaking a law) by taking a firearm inside a court house. You are breaking a courthouse rule and you will be held in contempt of court and the judge can fine you, toss you in jail or make you do something else (community service, etc..) But again we need some of our INGO ATTYs to look into this more.
What happens if you refuse?
Well it is going to go something like this.
INGO member Joe arrives at DNR range OC his GLOCK.
DNR RO is going to inform Joe of the rules and to obey them.
Joe refuses to obey the rules. RO is going to call DNR LEO (ie. game warden)
DNR LEO is going to tell Joe the rules and to obey them.
Joe refuses to obey the rules. DNR LEO is going to cite Joe for breaking the DNR rules.
(ie. a ticket similar to a speeding ticket)
DNR LEO is also going to tell Joe he must leave the range now or be arrested for trespassing.
Joe leaves with his citation or Joe gets arrested.
Also the citation is going to allow DNR manager to say Joe can NOT return to DNR range for XYZ time due to rule infraction.
Now I do not know the legality of all this above. Again that is for our INGO ATTYs or an INGO members to figure out.
What I do know is that at time point INDY DNR is not going to change this rule due to their fear of being sued and then losing all the ranges.
So if we want this rule changes it will require our legislatures to get involved. It will require us going to our reps about this.
It will do you no good to just go and complain to your senator. What solution do you propose will fix this?
Ie. some type of agreement where you use the range at your own risk? So that you can't sue the state for what Person B does to you while you and Person B are on the range because Person B has no gun safety in mind. ??? I don't known but I do know that we need potential solutions to bring to our reps in order for this to move forward. Our reps are not just going to tackle this problem alone.
UPDATE 1 - JUNE 17, 2017
I was able to talk face to face with Tom Despot who is the Region North Manager (Winamac is under his supervision; He is Winamac's boss and in turn he reports to Indy). He was at today's NWI INGO/WINAMAC DNR Youth Event. The issue of the no holstered sidearms comes down to liability.
WINAMAC has be blessed in that it have never had a reported shooting accident in all the years it has been operational. Sadly that is not the case with other DNR facilities in the state especially in southern Indiana. This year so far there have been 2 reported shooting accidents at DNR ranges in southern Indiana. DNR HQ's concern is that these and other incidents like it will bring someone to sue them due to unsafe range conditions. I'm not an ATTY and one can argue all day that it is NOT the state's fault that person A shot person B while person B was downrange changing a target when person A decided to handle their firearm at the bench. We have all see this happen at the state ranges and we have all done a variety of things to ensure it does not occur when we are around. (ie. NWI INGO just takes over the 25 yard range and we "police" ourselves to ensure hot/cold range, etc.)
Why would person B sue the state of Indiana and not person A (the person who accidentally shot them)? Who has the deeper pockets? The state off course. So DNR HQ is trying to mitigate this risk. Worse case scenario for them is Person B does sue them and they lose and the state pays out $$$. Next thing the state legislature is going to do is ask why do we have state ranges if they are going to cost us $$$ in civil suits. Just shut them all down and no more worries. This is exactly what DNR HQ is trying to avoid.
So why the rule? Well in the ideal world DNR HQ would like to put 1 RO for every bench they have on the range so that everyone is watched 24/7 and there are zero accidents. Financially that is impossible. At WINAMAC alone it would require a staff of 13 for all the benches. So the more fiscal approach is one RO for all 4 ranches and that RO's job is to make sure everyone is safe and not handling firearms when people are downrange. The quickest and easiest way for the RO to do that is knowing no one is carrying so the only firearms would be those on the benches. Makes life much easier to see if anyone is about to touch a weapon.
So why the rule NOW in 2017? Well as stated above they have had recorded incidents of shooting accidents at some of the ranges. The other thing they have begun to see is a lot more "new NEW" gun owners. People who literally have just come from walmart with their first rifle, a box of ammo and are shooting for the first time. Recall your first time shooting. Did you know all the safety rules? Did you know range dos/donots especially with other people (strangers) on the benches next to you?
The influx of new shooters has been seen mainly at the modern ranges (ie. deer creek, willow slew, Kingsburry) where ROs man the places 24/7 like hawks. But as those new ranges have become popular and over crowded the smaller ranges like WINAMAC which where once just used by deer hunters who were sighting in their rifles are beginning to see more and more "city folks" and "1st time shooters" who are not familiar with all the rules.
So that is the detailed deeper explanation by the regional manager who is in charge of NORTH Indiana. He did not make the rule it came from DNR HQ in Indy. At first he too was very upset about the rule but the more he thought about it and the goal of not having any accidental shootings like southern Indiana has had the more he agrees with it in the fact that it helps control where the firearms are at so the ROs have an easier time ensuring no one is handling weapons when people are downrange.
So the next question is "Is this legal? Are they stepping on my rights? What if I refuse?"
Like I said I'm not an ATTY but my take is this DNR rule is similar to "court rules" in that it is NOT illegal (ie. you are not breaking a law) by taking a firearm inside a court house. You are breaking a courthouse rule and you will be held in contempt of court and the judge can fine you, toss you in jail or make you do something else (community service, etc..) But again we need some of our INGO ATTYs to look into this more.
What happens if you refuse?
Well it is going to go something like this.
INGO member Joe arrives at DNR range OC his GLOCK.
DNR RO is going to inform Joe of the rules and to obey them.
Joe refuses to obey the rules. RO is going to call DNR LEO (ie. game warden)
DNR LEO is going to tell Joe the rules and to obey them.
Joe refuses to obey the rules. DNR LEO is going to cite Joe for breaking the DNR rules.
(ie. a ticket similar to a speeding ticket)
DNR LEO is also going to tell Joe he must leave the range now or be arrested for trespassing.
Joe leaves with his citation or Joe gets arrested.
Also the citation is going to allow DNR manager to say Joe can NOT return to DNR range for XYZ time due to rule infraction.
Now I do not know the legality of all this above. Again that is for our INGO ATTYs or an INGO members to figure out.
What I do know is that at time point INDY DNR is not going to change this rule due to their fear of being sued and then losing all the ranges.
So if we want this rule changes it will require our legislatures to get involved. It will require us going to our reps about this.
It will do you no good to just go and complain to your senator. What solution do you propose will fix this?
Ie. some type of agreement where you use the range at your own risk? So that you can't sue the state for what Person B does to you while you and Person B are on the range because Person B has no gun safety in mind. ??? I don't known but I do know that we need potential solutions to bring to our reps in order for this to move forward. Our reps are not just going to tackle this problem alone.
Yes but you need to stay on the cement to do this.
So I went back and read page one.
How is one supposed to get your daily carry into the range to practice? Coon finger it in the parking lot? They got sand barrels for that? Do they WANT a ND? Does it need to be cased? If so, WTF is cased better than holstered?
Oh, good Lord:
Aren't they always loaded?
Sorry, just
Their house, their rules... oh, wait....
They prefer you to have all your weapons that you are going to fire unloaded and pointed in a safe direction (ie down) while you walk to the bench you will be using. For your EDC if you are not going to shoot it then leave it in the car was the advise.
UPDATE 1 - JUNE 17, 2017
I was able to talk face to face with Tom Despot who is the Region North Manager (Winamac is under his supervision; He is Winamac's boss and in turn he reports to Indy). He was at today's NWI INGO/WINAMAC DNR Youth Event. The issue of the no holstered sidearms comes down to liability....
...Our reps are not just going to tackle this problem alone.[/QUOTE]
Saw the long conversation you had to day. Appreciate the information as it was a apparent clarification exchange.
I was able to talk face to face with Tom Despot who is the Region North Manager (Winamac is under his supervision; He is Winamac's boss and in turn he reports to Indy). He was at today's NWI INGO/WINAMAC DNR Youth Event. The issue of the no holstered sidearms comes down to liability....
...Our reps are not just going to tackle this problem alone.[/QUOTE]
Saw the long conversation you had to day. Appreciate the information as it was a apparent clarification exchange.
Like today, unstuck the shirt.
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