No Gun at Church Anymore

[ArmedProgrammer]

The problem is most likely the OC part of it. I tend to agree with ATM's take on what to do about it.

I suspect that if that's the case - he'd most likely have no problem with you CC'ing - just doesn't want OC so that you scare others around you needlessly. While the gang here may all be cool with it - I can understand if he preferred that you cc.

The fact that he doesn't know you that well is a concern for sure.

 

[GuyRelford]

One thing I always remind people of in my Indiana Gun Law course regarding church - the Indiana Supreme Court has held that if a church runs an educational program for children on its property (specifically, a "quasi-kindergarten" in one case), then the church can be considered a "school" for purposes of the criminal penalties for dealing drugs within a certain distance of a school. I worry that the same interpretation could be applied to our statutory prohibition of firearms on "school property."

See State v. French, 778 N.E.2d 816 (Ind. 2002).

 

[Mr. Habib]

Show your pastor these:
What does the Bible say about self-defense?
The Bible and self-defense
Command Briefs: Bible Affirms Our Right to Self-Defense
A Biblical Framework: Self Defense and Christianity, Part 1
If that doesn't work then I would seriously consider a new place of worship. As a last resort buy an MTAC holster with the Velcro belt clips, tuck in your shirt, and don't say a word about it. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[j706]

I tend to think open carry is pretty goofy but to each his own. But to church? Sheezz man. Out of sight out of mind works real well.

 

[Expat]

You don't say what denomination you belong to? Does your pastor have the authority to make this ultimatum? Some churches have a Board of Elders that actually run the church. You might ask to meet with them. Develop a security plan and present to them. Point out the recent church shootings,etc.

I never would have started OCing when CCing had never presented a problem.

Most of the churches in my are do not believe in self defense. They are pacifists and take the "turn the other cheek business" and that "if someone demands your shirt give him your coat too" pretty seriously. If you go to one of them, I think you are just screwed.

 

[Johnson]

A Biblical Approach
I Corinthians 8 (Read and study this chapter 8 and understand that it is talking about not doing something that you feel is not a sin(or wrong) because others think that it is wrong . You do this because you do not want others who are weak in faith to "stumble" This verse fits your situation perfectly.)
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weakI Corinthians 8:9
Application of this principle to the situation:
If you feel that you should go to that church then I would not put your gun ahead of God and other members.
The big picture here is that many people go to church to learn about God and hopefully get saved. I would not want to discourage anyone person from knowing Christ personally. I would daresay that many Christians are in favor of you having your gun rights. Others may be against and many more are on the fence. I would not want my gun to be the reason people stumbled and did not go to church. I certainly would not want someone to be afraid to go to church even if they were a gun hatin' lib. Yes, you have the liberty to carry your gun. There is no sin in taking your gun to church. The pastor is hearing another side of the story and feels it is best that you not carry it. I do not think that most pastors would ask you to do something that you did not want to do unless there was a good reason. I would seek a compromise in this situation with an ankle holster. Tactically, this is the best approach anyway because if a shooter come in then you can go down to the pew for cover and comeback shooting and save the life of the lib and convert him to a gun totin' conservative.

This ^^

I was waiting to be able to get to my computer so I could articulate a proper response, and maxmayhem beat me to it. The bottom line should be your responsibility to Christ and His Church (obviously not talking about the building here). Being pro-2nd amendment, pro-oc, or pro anything else is not a prerequisite for trusting in Christ for your salvation. I personally would hate to think exercising my freedom caused someone to turn away from hearing the Word that saves. Non-salvation issues and freedoms should never take precedence over the spreading of the Gosple, or the worship of our Father.

I know many non-Christians may not completely understand or agree with this prinicple, but as a Brother, I am hoping you see the point. This isn't a public park or the local Wal-Mart we are discussing. The rules would be different in those cases.

Hope this helps.

 

[chicken89]

i was told by my pastor that my carrying was encouraged... then when he was deployed, the board told me that the pastor did not speak for the church, and that the board would talk about it and get me an answer... they said no go.
my response was- if any shooters enter the church, my family and i are escaping. the board member (who told me the no-go) said he would do the same, but would return with his gun that is locked in his car. i politely informed him that if he did return to the church with his gun, after telling me that the church would not allow it, that i would have to arrest him for having a gun in the building. he did not respond.
so, my response to those seeking to carry in a church that has said, "no-go". respect their decision.
if you attend a church that says, "we are all for it", GET A SIGNED LETTER BY THE DECISION MAKING BOARD and carry it at all times. if someone questions you about carrying, you have your permission. if an officer responds and a board member/pastor says you never had permission (either through passing of time, or retiring/newly elected member), you will be arrested until your proof has been verified (so if it was by a board that has been replaced, you get a free night in jail). CYA, approvals with signatures will be what saves you.

now, since i am not allowed to carry my firearm, i have an abundance of knives on my person and spouse. better something than nothing

 

[Scutter01]

if an officer responds and a board member/pastor says you never had permission (either through passing of time, or retiring/newly elected member), you will be arrested until your proof has been verified (so if it was by a board that has been replaced, you get a free night in jail).

What would the charge be, exactly?

 

[Que]

Loopie, I've often thought about this very situation if it happened at my church. My pastor is a person whom I have marked to be an upright man. He's not perfect, but he preaches what he lives and will quickly admit when he has erred. That said, I trust him with my money and my wife, but not our natural lives.

Whenever I've carried at church, I have always CC'd. Anytime one is part of the pastor's team, it is his responsibility to represent the leader to the congregation. I don't agree with everything my pastor says about natural issues, but that is my issue and I would never pronounce my feelings to anyone. It's my belief that my pastor would react the same as yours, so I would never give him that opportunity or place him is the situation to have to make that choice. As said before, it sounds like your pastor doesn't know you, but it's evident that you didn't know him when you made the choice to OC.

You've gotten a lot of great advice up to this point. Try talking to him and presenting some of the documentation outlined. I would not recommend lying to him, but agreeing to a compromise is something he may be willing to do. I hope this works out for you.

 

[ATM]

...GET A SIGNED LETTER BY THE DECISION MAKING BOARD and carry it at all times...

...you will be arrested until your proof has been verified...

I will assume that your church is considered school property per Indiana Code definition for this to be true.

Otherwise, no law is being broken and there would be no charge for an arrest.

 

[singlesix]

ON thin ice about not breaking the forum rules on religion, but here goes: The "book" you read at your place on Sunday has a lot to say about this matter. My personal belief is that the "ONE" who you speak to on Sunday and maybe daily will guide you in this matter.

I carry at church will the full knowledge and approval of the Pastor. I choose to CC most of the time to respect the views of those that don't "agree" with guns. I OC when I am escorting the money to the bank. The regulars know I carry and they don't have a problem or have not expressed concern.

My "thoughts" with you during this time.

 

[Expat]

I will assume that your church is considered school property per Indiana Code definition for this to be true.

Otherwise, no law is being broken and there would be no charge for an arrest.

If you have been informed by the decision making officer of the church to not carry on premises but continue to do so, is that trespassing? Seems like that is what the malls do.

 

[Scutter01]

ON thin ice about not breaking the forum rules on religion, but here goes: The "book" you read at your place on Sunday has a lot to say about this matter. My personal belief is that the "ONE" who you speak to on Sunday and maybe daily will guide you in this matter.

The words "bible" and "g-d" are not banned on INGO, nor is Christianity, contrary to what many seem to believe. Just religious discussion (of ANY religion). As long as the thread stays on-topic (specifically about carrying at a church), and doesn't stray into proselytizing, everything's hunky-dory.

 

[ATM]

If you have been informed by the decision making officer of the church to not carry on premises but continue to do so, is that trespassing? Seems like that is what the malls do.

IMO, if the church leader with authority to do so officially told a specific member to not return, there may be grounds for a trespassing charge if that person returns.

If they simply forbid an item from being carried or worn, not so much.

The malls tend to do it just as poorly, which is why you never hear of someone charged with trespassing for simply having a prohibited item on them.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

My primary reaction is to the fact that after that much time and involvement, your pastor doesn't even seem to know you. IMHO, that's a pretty big deal.

This.

I've went on tirades about religion, personal faith and whatnot, but this burns me to no end. If you've given your time to a church, especially as an integral part of the worship team, and your PASTOR doesn't know you? Either they have a poor memory, or they just don't care.

Personally, I would find a new pastor. One that gives a damn about you.

 

[moischmoe]

I would never consider OCing at my church. There are too many old ladies who would hound me relentlessly.

Talk to your pastor. Show him news clips of church shootings. Offer to carry concealed, but don't do it secretly if he says No Guns. Promise you will use it to defend only yourself, and no one else.

 

[goinggreyfast]

Fortunately, our pastor is a former LEO. He encourages a few of us to CC just in case someone gets stupid and decides to come in and break the law.

I guess if this is a "deal breaker" for you and yours, then it could be an indicator to politely excuse yourself and set about finding a congregation and leadership that aligns themselves with your personal convictions. That's a choice only you can make, but there's plenty of them out there that do allow it.

Personally, I take the S&W 442 because it's easier to conceal. No need in causing others to feel uncomfortable. God forbid, but if we who carry ever need to use our sidearms, those folk would probably be pretty thankful.

Funny thing, there are a couple of the older ladies in our church that have given me a hug and I know they have had to notice that I have a sidearm on my hip. They just smile and wink. HA!

 

[littletommy]

My simple answer would be to just go to another church, don't tell em bye, nothing, just don't show up Sunday morning. I am not a church go-er, but I do understand the stresses involved when deciding to leave a church, and if this one is important to you, then, as others have said, talk to the Pastor again, and let him know that you want to stay where you are, but it's critical to YOU that you are allowed to carry. If he will not bend, then walk.

I agree with several others who have already said don't lie to the guy (not that you would). I think it would cause far more trouble in the long run to CC after being told by the pastor not to.

 

[USMC_0311]

.... I would likely offer the compromise of keeping it concealed....

ATM concealed? The world is comming to an end faster then I thought.

Note to the OP concealed means concealed.

You might try a different holster/carrying method. A tuckable ISW would allow you ditch the jacket.

 

[squirrelhntr]

ON thin ice about not breaking the forum rules on religion, but here goes: The "book" you read at your place on Sunday has a lot to say about this matter. My personal belief is that the "ONE" who you speak to on Sunday and maybe daily will guide you in this matter.

I carry at church will the full knowledge and approval of the Pastor. I choose to CC most of the time to respect the views of those that don't "agree" with guns. I OC when I am escorting the money to the bank. The regulars know I carry and they don't have a problem or have not expressed concern.

My "thoughts" with you during this time.

i agee with all of the above. i don't believe the Good Lord cares if you protect yourself.