Precision Gun Range neighbors think they are in the line of fire

[Floivanus]

To add to your list of examples is the former Citizens Gas & Coke Utility on the southeast side of Indianapolis. That plant "cooked" coal in ovens to the point where the coal broke down into component parts, namely, methane gas, coal tar, and coke. The methane gas was used by residential and commercial customers for heating, cooking, etc. The coal tar was used by Reilly Tar & Chemical to make various chemical products. The coke was shipped to the steel mills to make steel.

The CG&CU plant was built around the turn of the 19-20th centuries and there were no houses around. That didn't stop residential developers from building houses around the plant. And, that didn't stop the residents from complaining about the odors emanating from the plant.

Now, the plant is shut down and being dismantled. The irony of all this is that the Indianapolis/Marion County government is talking about building a criminal justice center on that property. Which would you rather have in your backyard? A chemical plant or a jail?

Very similarly the citizens of gary complain about US Steel running and operating to this day, even though the city was built as a company town.

And With a good berm like they have I have to ask why doesn't a modicum of responsibility fall on the shooters? Ever go to a short indoor range and see the ceiling have marks from a couple errant rounds?

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yes...and nothing you said leads to the conclusion that the range owners blaming individuals shooters is an adequate response.

Yes. Ultimately it is the shooter's responsibility to keep rounds inside the property. Now as you know counselor, there is something to be said for shared responsibility if the facility failed to take adequate precautions to prevent said rounds from escaping. They cant exactly set up two levels of barrels full of sand at 100yd and say "There ya go. There's your backstop. Make sure you dont send any rounds past those barrels, mmmkay? If you do its not my responsibility." OK, thats a bit extreme, but you get the picture. Everybody has a shared responsibility to do their jobs. Its our job to keep our muzzles down and boogerhooks off bang switches, and its their job to do whatever it takes to contain those bullets. "Close enough" is not an appropriate response when looking at the berm you engineered.


Going back to the airport analogy. The pilot's job is to keep it in the air. If the airport manager isnt providing a safe facility and making the pilot make risky takeoffs and landings due to insufficient runways, he should share responsibility in an accident.

 

[bb37]

Granted there will always be some jackwagon that makes us all look bad. That is where range officers/ management have to do their jobs...

What if the ROs and/or management are jackwagons, too? Not saying that they are in this case, but if they don't recognize a problem, they probably aren't going to fix it.

That said, according to news reports, the management is working with law enforcement to resolve the problem. But, as long as they take the position that the errant rounds came from hunters and not range users, then there may be some resistance by the management to do anything.

The concerned homeowner seems to be acting in a calm understanding manner and has a legitimate reason to bring up the issue.

The sobbing mother in the WTHR report certainly wasn't calm.

Now, let me throw out a possibility. Is it possible someone is using the range at an unauthorized time and in an unsupervised manner that could account for the errant rounds landing on other property?

If that's the case, and I'm not saying that it is, then the range needs better physical security.

 

[thunderchicken]

What if the ROs and/or management are jackwagons, too? Not saying that they are in this case, but if they don't recognize a problem, they probably aren't going to fix it.

That said, according to news reports, the management is working with law enforcement to resolve the problem. But, as long as they take the position that the errant rounds came from hunters and not range users, then there may be some resistance by the management to do anything.


The sobbing mother in the WTHR report certainly wasn't calm.


If that's the case, and I'm not saying that it is, then the range needs better physical security.

Well bb37, if the RO's and range management are also jackwagons and unable to recognize there maybe some problems (no doubt there are, always some kind of problem when dealing with the public) then they have no business operating a facility that deals in using deadly weapons. They can claim that the errant rounds come from hunters and not range users all day...why wouldn't they cover their asses by using plausible deniability? They probably need to in an effort to avoid accepting liability. And of course they are going to "cooperate with law enforcement" especially when they need to display their business in a positive light. Any business person/ property manager with half a brain knows there are always improvements to be made.

As for the sobbing mother, the homeowners have stated it isn't their desire to shut the range down, just to make it safer. Sounds to me like the range management needs to take a proactive approach and evaluate how they can make improvements to lessen the likelihood of errant rounds coming from their range. Certainly cost is always an issue but the cost of raising the dirt back stop and maybe using lumber to create some kind of deflector to stop poor shots/ricochet from leaving the range probably isn't that large of a cost. As someone else mentioned they can raise funds from us in the shooting community farily easy IMHO.

 

[Thegeek]

I'm not sure I agree with this. Doesn't the shooter have the final say in where their round goes? Isn't the shooter's responsibility to not fire a round high? If shooters are hitting overhead walls or deflectors, shouldn't they stop and figure out why?

I think your assumption is that everyone does everything right every time. I completely agree it should never happen. If you've been shooting long enough, you've experienced a slow primer. Pull the trigger and it goes click. A few seconds later, BANG! Someone who isn't as seasoned might drop the butt of the gun and look at it like WTF?? They think it didn't chamber, or a dud round, etc. Barrel is pointing over the backstop and you've got an escaped bullet. Pistols you see it all the time with people trying to double tap or not holding the trigger to control reset. Gun recoils, points up and round number two goes in the sky. In both cases, yes, it's the shooters fault. But it does happen. Regardless of the reason, it does. What I'm saying is to ignore that fact and point the finger at the shooter is borderline negligence.

 

[thunderchicken]

Thegeek - you make a good point, such things do happen. Personally, I do blame the shooter for those misplaced rounds. If the gun was in your hand you are responsible for where that bullet goes, you own it and are responsible for it. I think for example some blame could be put on a more experienced shooter such as a parent that maybe lets a kid shoot a gun they can't handle. Not long ago I saw a kid shoot the baffles at Atterbury because dad loaded 2 rounds in a .45, first one went down range and 2nd one hit the baffles. So yes it happens. But I believe whoever owns/operates a range open to the public, has to assume those risks to occur as part of the operation. And I beleive they may need to do more to prevent those rounds from escaping. As I said before, they should always be making plans for improvements to the facility.

 

[Fullmag]

Here at the range in my county one of issues most stressed is shooting at targets short of the backstop with the concern the bullet will skip over the backstop. We also have had homeowners build behind the range that has been there for around 50 years. I was taught, always know where your bullet is going to stop.

 

[thunderchicken]

Yep know your target and what is beyond it. That is my concern with the new rifle hunting laws

 

[indyartisan]

Fullmag
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Here at the range in my county one of issues most stressed is shooting at targets short of the backstop with the concern the bullet will skip over the backstop. We also have had homeowners build behind the range that has been there for around 50 years. I was taught, always know where your bullet is going to stop.
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This is is a very good point.
Some experience shooting tracer bullets might open some eyes around here on what some percentage of bullets do when they strike the ground or a berm.

 

[hog slayer]

Was at buck and bass in wabash this weekend. They are fighting a river trail that would create a dangerous backdrop for the range. The resultant expenditure to the range to increase berms, install fence etc is estimated at over 2 million dollar!

 

[Ericpwp]

That is sad to hear.

 

[gmcttr]

...Some experience shooting tracer bullets might open some eyes around here on what some percentage of bullets do when they strike the ground or a berm.

Ain't that the truth. I was surprised years ago shooting 5.56 tracers. Instead of skipping off dirt/sod at the same low angle of strike, many would leave closer to a ~45* angle and appear to go 100's of feet up.

 

[tenring]

Back in the Corps we stayed out on the rifle range until it got good and dark. It was going to be a Fam Fire drill. About 30 or so guys put 20 tracer rounds in a magazine and walked up to the line. On command we cut loose on semi and high gear. Those rounds were going every which way. Over the berm at 500, off to the right and left totally off the range, and watched one tumble back over our heads and into the parking lot. Seems one Troop handler wound up with a burnt spot on the hood of his car. One round that went off to the left caught that Kalifornia brush on fire and by the time we were getting out of there the base fire department was out there doing their thing. Those were '16s we were using.

 

[ghitch75]

Reading threads like this make me thankful that I live in the woods.

me too!!......

if rounds are leaving the range it is pretty cut and dry to me get a dozer out there and raise the berm or shut it down........the people that own the range HAS to take responsibly for there range.....

pretty simple really.....

 

[42769vette]

Guess eventually, we will run out of room and all the ranges will close?

I'm not sure how this fits into the argument, but technically, yes. We make more people every day, we do not make more property every day. Those people have to live somewhere, so city's get bigger, and as they get bigger the rural areas where these ranges are get smaller. Thats not a problem, INGO, or the gun community can or will solve.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm not sure how this fits into the argument, but technically, yes. We make more people every day, we do not make more property every day. Those people have to live somewhere, so city's get bigger, and as they get bigger the rural areas where these ranges are get smaller. Thats not a problem, INGO, or the gun community can or will solve.

Yes, we can. Have you been to the HC or Israel? Ranges are common. However, they put effort into them.

The gun community can solve it with more study and effort.

1. Direct more NRA resources to range development and range education.

2. Direct more P-R money to range development and education.

3. Direct the gun culture to becoming more safety conscious rather than "good enough" or "that's how we usta do it". Crushing the Herpa Derp is a priority. Once we eliminate this self-imposed, self-defeating roadblock, we can focus on gun safety.

 

[singlesix]

I'll just leave this here:

[video=youtube;r5capbhKlVA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5capbhKlVA&t=36s[/video]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

me too!!......

if rounds are leaving the range it is pretty cut and dry to me get a dozer out there and raise the berm or shut it down........the people that own the range HAS to take responsibly for there range.....

pretty simple really.....

I believe you have possibly committed a hate crime by pointing out the obvious.

 

[ghitch75]

I believe you have possibly committed a hate crime by pointing out the obvious.

i guess i did..........took 14 pages....

 

[Kirk Freeman]

i guess i did..........took 14 pages....

No, I pointed it out in post 11, but induced a riot when I pointed out the obvious.