Rangemaster Courses in Indiana, 2017

[Coach]

LE or home defense use the needs are the same. Hard hitting, accurate ammo. You have to aim the shotgun. A bad pattern means fliers. Fliers hit unintended targets. Wide patterns shot around the vital zone on the threat. There is no room for sloppy shooting in defensive shooting regardless of rifle, pistol, or shotgun.

At 20 to 25 yards the need is to have all 9 pellets on the target in the kills zone.

Last fall in the shotgun class at Nappanee only one third of the class passed the qualification and ammo had a lot to do with it.

 

[GIJEW]

Max distance for your buckshot is dictated by keeping all pellets on the target. If the gun patterns appropriately at the distances you need then go for it. But what if you need to shot farther? What if you need to make s precision shot and you have buckshot in the gun?

That's my point. the longest distance inside most homes is about 7yds. Having a pattern of 3-6" can keep the shot on target and in a worst case scenario, keep some of it on target instead of a possible clean miss. Need a longer range shot? swap the buckshot with a slug.

 

[GIJEW]

LE or home defense use the needs are the same. Hard hitting, accurate ammo. You have to aim the shotgun. A bad pattern means fliers. Fliers hit unintended targets. Wide patterns shot around the vital zone on the threat. There is no room for sloppy shooting in defensive shooting regardless of rifle, pistol, or shotgun.

At 20 to 25 yards the need is to have all 9 pellets on the target in the kills zone.

Last fall in the shotgun class at Nappanee only one third of the class passed the qualification and ammo had a lot to do with it.

My line of thinking is that inside your home, the structure mitigates the hazard of any fliers; a pattern of several inches would increase hit probability while being adequate for keeping the shot on target; 25yds is more relevant to LEOs in public than home defense; why not use slugs exclusively--is there a huge difference in overpenetration between a slug and buckshot?

 

[Coach]

My line of thinking is that inside your home, the structure mitigates the hazard of any fliers; a pattern of several inches would increase hit probability while being adequate for keeping the shot on target; 25yds is more relevant to LEOs in public than home defense; why not use slugs exclusively--is there a huge difference in overpenetration between a slug and buckshot?

Most homes have hallways longer than 7 yards with rooms at the end. The structure does not mitigate the hazard of fliers. Fliers go through dry wall and glass. Home defense must account for friendly people in the home. Fliers are bad. Slugs penetrate and travel three times further than 00 buckshot maybe further. Slugs and home defense a bad idea. I recommend taking the shotgun course from Tom in the fall.

If a person cannot aim a shotgun and get a hit inside of the home then practice is in order.

 

[Coach]

That's my point. the longest distance inside most homes is about 7yds. Having a pattern of 3-6" can keep the shot on target and in a worst case scenario, keep some of it on target instead of a possible clean miss. Need a longer range shot? swap the buckshot with a slug.

Swapping and loading a slug for a long shot in the middle of a fight is unlikely. Find the slug and get into the chamber, and then fire. What if the gun is not empty? Going to be a chore, and it is all on the clock.

 

[GIJEW]

Thanks for the detailed feedback Aron

 

[Coach]

Another way of thinking about it is that slugs are designed for deer. Buckshot is not. It is anti-personnel.

 

[VERT]

Do you think Buckshot is Buckshot?
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Think again.

Don't want to thread jack the training announcement but Coach has inspired me a bit and I have been doing some serious shotgun patterning work. This really is something that everyone should do with their gun. Every gun is different! I loaded up on some 8 pellet Federal flight control on the recommendation of someone for which I have a lot of respect. This load shoots fantastic in one of my guns but not the other. I was getting similar sized and much more consistent patterning out of the 9 pellet Fiocchi low recoil in the second gun. I found some 9 pellet low recoil flight control at the LGS and guess what! It shoots great. So every gun is different and small changes in the load can make a difference.

I have patterned the low recoil offerings from Federal, Fiocchi, PMC and Rio. I also tried Remington #4 buckshot and for slugs the Winchester segmenting slug, Federal Trueball, and Fiocchi aeroslug. So far I am most impressed with the Federal offerings.

 

[Coach]

Don't want to thread jack the training announcement but Coach has inspired me a bit and I have been doing some serious shotgun patterning work. This really is something that everyone should do with their gun. Every gun is different! I loaded up on some 8 pellet Federal flight control on the recommendation of someone for which I have a lot of respect. This load shoots fantastic in one of my guns but not the other. I was getting similar sized and much more consistent patterning out of the 9 pellet Fiocchi low recoil in the second gun. I found some 9 pellet low recoil flight control at the LGS and guess what! It shoots great. So every gun is different and small changes in the load can make a difference.

I have patterned the low recoil offerings from Federal, Fiocchi, PMC and Rio. I also tried Remington #4 buckshot and for slugs the Winchester segmenting slug, Federal Trueball, and Fiocchi aeroslug. So far I am most impressed with the Federal offerings.

Was the gun full choke that would not shoot the flite control well? I hear the choke tubes strip the wad off and destroy the whole point of the special wad.

 

[VERT]

Was the gun full choke that would not shoot the flite control well? I hear the choke tubes strip the wad off and destroy the whole point of the special wad.

Possible Vang Comp 18" cylinder bore. I say possible because it looks like a vang barrel but I picked the gun up used at the LGS so I don't know. It patterns birdshot and cheap buckshot as good or better then a factory IC barrel. But it strings the 8 pellet flight control left to right in 2 distinct 4 pellet lines. At 5-7 yards it looks like the wad is tumbling through the paper and the pattern is about a 1" tall and 6" wide. Google tells me some people see weird patterns with Vang barrels and Federal or Hornady wads, others say they shoot great. Interestingly enough the 9 pellet flight control shoots good. At 10-15 yards it is simply amazing.

edit: 9 pellet Federal. Notice a flyer starts opening up on the 15 yard pattern. That is an argument in favor of the 8 pellet load but this particular gun shoots the 9 pellet more consistently. Also notice my patterns are to the right. This is with a bead sight and must be how I mount the gun because shot and slugs all group slightly right.

 

[rhino]

Does Federal make a 20ga buckshot load with a flight control wad for those of us with a delicate constitution?

 

[Coach]

Does Federal make a 20ga buckshot load with a flight control wad for those of us with a delicate constitution?

Doubt it. Most of the research development have gone for LE use.

 

[VERT]

Does Federal make a 20ga buckshot load with a flight control wad for those of us with a delicate constitution?

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammu...l-defense/personal-defense-shotshell/pd256-4b

I don't know if it is "flight control" or not. 1100 fps should be low recoil though.

 

[rhino]

Doubt it. Most of the research development have gone for LE use.

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammu...l-defense/personal-defense-shotshell/pd256-4b

I don't know if it is "flight control" or not. 1100 fps should be low recoil though.

Thank you both!

 

[Coach]

Great classes in Indiana. Have you signed up yet?

 

[Coach]

TTT

 

[Coach]

I drove 1170 miles yesterday, and I just mowed the driest parts of the yard today. So I have had some time to reflect and to think. These upcoming pistol and shotgun classes are on my mind. I am going to try and post some comments here over the next two weeks to keep the thread at the top. I am also hoping to make reasonable people sign up for these classes. My goal is to be logical and convincing and yet not abrasive. I hope to address some things that people have said to me in person that I was not really ready to answer and I failed to respond to correctly. Occasionally I get caught flat footed, and sometimes I need to think before I respond. So I will respond here for all to see and maybe it will do some good.

The first comment I get in person from a number of people is the cost of the class. Some version of "It is expensive."

Yes it is. But it is not outlandish or out of whack. Tom has been there and done that. He has been teaching right around 40 years and he is good at it. He is fair, honest and high qualified and he gets the points across. When you take his class you are getting a lifetime of experience. How much is a lifetime of experience worth? Smart people can learn from others experiences and not have to learn it for themselves the hard way. Not only does Tom have the experience of a master in the art of the pistol, but his students have a track record on the street that is hard to believe. All of his former students that were assaulted or attacked on the street and were armed at the time of the encounter prevailed. 100% results what can speak more than that? Not only can he do it but he can teach the fundamentals, essentials, or critical things that will lead to success for you. If your number is drawn for a criminal attack, or home invasion would you rather have this type of training or not? The answer is obvious if you are being honest with yourself.

These classes were announced a year in advance so that dates, money and ammunition could be saved. You will get your moneys worth. I promise you that. I think it is unfair to expect a life time of experience and knowledge to be labelled as too expensive. Especially with the track record that is in play here. I am a teacher and the father of two. I understand the value of a dollar. I don't want to come across as this is a bargain at any price. But with proper discipline and planning it is affordable. I think too many people discount training as too expensive. Come into this class rested with a note pad and absorb every minute in the classroom and on the range and it will be very worthwhile. Properly done this should be a confidence building experience.

If you never have to use the skills learned in this class you will have lived a good life with confidence. That is nothing like a waste.

 

[VERT]

I have personally trained with Tom on 3 different occasions. His courses are an exceptional value. Understand that value and cheap price are not synonymous.

I want to take the shotgun course. But hard to commit at this point because it requires involving the in laws driving down to get the kids to school or my wife burning vacation as well. Trust me the cost of the course never entered my mind when evaluating if I can attend.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

This will be my second time training with Tom. My first was in a class where Coach was also a student.

Coach's and VERT's statements are very much in line with my own thoughts of training with Tom or any number of quality Instructors. If you really want to not just see, but understand what a proven method to do and why to do it when it comes to firearms, Tom is a valuable resource for that knowledge. That is why I signed up early for his Shotgun course. Close enough to home and well worth the investment to learn what you can't from watching a YouTube video.

 

[Coach]

The second comment that I have come in contact in person about this class was flattering for me and one I had no response for at those times. It was a few different versions of; "I am going to let you fulfill my handgun training." "What is Tom Givens going to teach me that you have not or are not capable of teaching me."

Part of me wanted to reply nothing, but instead I said nothing and sort of shrugged it off. Any good response to that question either hurts my bottom line or perhaps hurts my credentials as a pistol instructor. I am not sure it is good business sense in some ways to answer that question very convincingly. I will just take the comment as a compliment and provide the best answer I can. In the cause of the greater good I think it demands a response.

I went to the Polite Society and Tactical Conference in 2013 to test the waters and see what it was all about up close, and personal. My mentor, Rhino, raved about it for years and I finally decided to see for myself. I learned plenty, and was exposed to more. I got a full dose of Tom Givens and his style and teaching manners. I sat in on every one of his lecture that I could. I did not hear a single thing regarding technique from him that I disagreed with in any way whatever. So I concluded that if he agreed with me he must be a genius. It made me want to do more training with Tom Givens.

I am fairly good with a handgun. I feel like as an instructor that, I convey what I know to others, which is more rare than being good with a pistol, which is pretty rare in and of itself. But I have learned things about teaching, about effectively using a handgun and even more about using a shotgun from Tom Givens. Sometimes the nugget or nuggets of wisdom and experience are laying among the things you already know. But they are there and they are worth learning. Sometimes the learning is in the classroom and sometimes on the range. If I have one or two flaws in my shooting and they get exposed in the class, and I never even knew they were there prior to class. How much is that worth? If an instructor can learn in the class what does that tell you?

I ran the wrestling team in Centerville from 1992 to 1995. In those three seasons were had a dual meet record of 55-10. We won the Conference and Sectional title in the same year in 1994-1995 for the first time in the history of the school. We beat people that we had not beaten in 20 years during that run. We were pretty good. Much better than we had been in the past for certain. It was a great time. During that run I was the the coaches association clinic one year, where my college coach was presenting. I knew what he was going to say and I knew what he was going to show. I had seen in up close and personal in college. The topics were what had lead to the transformation of Centerville Wrestling. Coach Jarman spoke in the afternoon session. Several of the coaches on our schedule did not go at all, several that did go left during the afternoon session. One set from a school that I won't name stood up to leave and said, "this old man does not know anything that I don't already know. He has nothing to teach me." My thoughts were contemptuous for those coaches. I don't say rival because they have to beat you before it is a rivalry. I think there is some over lap with the comments I started with in this post. I am not contemptuous with my shooting clients because they have sought out training and recognized it as fundamentally sound. But I think they are missing an opportunity to learn from the master. Tom Givens is not my entire background or direction for my shooting, not nearly as much as Tom Jarman was for my wrestling, and coaching and to be honest teaching. But Tom Givens is fundamentally sound and does things right and his students track record in the match for life and death speak for itself. Facts trump theory every single time.

Tom Givens is very good. He is far more experienced than I am. He is no-nonsense, direct and objective. This can be an empowering experience but it will require and open mind and giving the instruction a chance. It is not the place to come in and get confirmation for your techniques and tactics if they are not proven.

I guess the bottom line is this: As good as I think I am as an instructor. Tom Givens is better.

Don't expect me to repeat the above statement a lot.