Remembering the Waco Massacre

[spearheadersarge]

168 innocent people were killed in retribution of Waco and Ruby Ridge. Hasn't the government realized that they can't assault their own citizenry without repercussion by now? Does it take full scale military style operations to serve an arrest warrant? Do agents have to indiscriminately shoot non identified targets to end a stand off? Why does the federal government have this power to begin with? Can federal agencies be reigned in? We all as Americans should begin a wave of communication demanding legislators defang fed LE power to conduct these raids. Too many innocent people have died due to mistakes and agency over-confidence. Waco and Ruby Ridge weren't the North Hollywood Shootout. These were people in their own homes. These arrests could have been affected in much better terms without the overkill or bloodshed on both sides. It's time to demand an end to the unfettered powers of the DEA, BATFE, FBI, CIA, et all.

 

[hooky]

Dude, someone kidnaps my child, and Im going to DEMAND that someone puts a gun in their face pronto.

Honestly, that whole situation goes above politics. A surviving parent, dare I say, has the God give right (if fit), to keep possession of their child, regardless of the what borders they reside.

We have a father in Cuba who wanted his child back; a child that he has 100% more claim over any other person on the planet. And you have a group of people that are intent on denying him custody. IMO, they could have broke down the door day and I wouldn't have had an issue with it.

Dude, as a parent myself, I don't want that gun to also index my child's head. There was a judicial process that was in play to address custody and asylum. Reno should have abided by that process. That is nothing but politics.

I normally side with your opinion on most posts you're involved in here, but I have to say you're off base on this one.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Lon answered the call when asked by his nation. You aren't besmirching an American hero, are you? Crime was afoot and he responded. He is a proud member of the brotherhood. He does bad things while you sleep to assure your freedom.

Is this some kind of a gag??? American hero???

Horiuchi not only assassinated Vicky Weaver as she stood holding her infant daughter in the doorway of her own home, he also murdered an unknown number of Branch Davidians. The Texas Rangers found his empty shell casings in his sniper hide.

That murdering little bastard should die at the end of a rope on the Washington Mall on the 4th of July.

 

[spearheadersarge]

Is this some kind of a gag??? American hero???

Horiuchi not only assassinated Vicky Weaver as she stood holding her infant daughter in the doorway of her own home, he also murdered an unknown number of Branch Davidians. The Texas Rangers found his empty shell casings in his sniper hide.

That murdering little bastard should die at the end of a rope on the Washington Mall on the 4th of July.

Wow! Didn't know he was at Waco as well. He's no hero in my book and I thought he should have been prosecuted at Ruby Ridge for sure! If he was "sniping" at Mt Carmel, then definitely for that as well.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Yep, they did. Legal warrant, legally attempted to be served. After being tipped off that the Feds were coming to serve said legal warrant, the Davidians began arming themselves.

I certainly think the ATF botched the raid, but there was going to be bloodshed of some sort anyway you look at how it could have unfolded. psychopaths and pedophiles, with guns, don't like it when the Feds come knockin.

I was serving on the NRA Board of Directors at the time of the Waco Genocide and for a number of years afterwards.

The NRA secured permission to arrange for an examination of the "automatic" weapons recovered from the WACO scene. The examinations were to be performed using non-invasive X-ray techniques and were to be conducted by the same firm that investigated the Challenger disaster. The purpose of the examination was to establish whether the weapons were capable of full-auto fire.

At the last minute. Janet Reno rescinded the permission. The excuse offered was that the weapons were "biological hazards" because they had been in the Waco complex with the corpses of the Branch Davidians.

Biological hazards? How do you get rid of a biological hazard? YOU BURN IT!!! Those rifles were no more of a biological hazard than the cigar butts in my ashtray.

Reno knew the Branch Davidians did not possess automatic weapons and to have that fact proven would be a disaster for the government's position.

To my knowledge, no one outside the government has ever been granted access to those weapons, and no one ever will.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Dude, as a parent myself, I don't want that gun to also index my child's head. There was a judicial process that was in play to address custody and asylum. Reno should have abided by that process. That is nothing but politics.

I normally side with your opinion on most posts you're involved in here, but I have to say you're off base on this one.

A child cannot petition for asylum, and legal custody as to who the child belonged was obvious. There never should have been any sort of judicial process. It's cut and dry. The purpose of the raid was to get Elian back into his fathers custody. After taken from his US relatives, his father flw to the US, and was re-united with his son. Both father and son were not allowed to leave until a court ruled in their favor.

"After Elián was returned to his father's custody, he remained in the U.S. while the Miami relatives exhausted their legal options. A three-judge federal panel had ruled that he could not go back to Cuba until he was granted an asylum hearing, but the case turned on the right of the relatives to request that hearing on behalf of the boy. On June 1, 2000, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Elián was too young to file for asylum; only his father could speak for him, and the relatives lacked legal standing"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elián_González_affair#cite_note-29

 

[Bummer]

Is this some kind of a gag??? American hero???

I'm sincerely hoping he was out of purple.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I am certain level was intentionally not using purple.

Wow! Didn't know he was at Waco as well.

Yes, in a forward sniper hide with a spotter.

 

[indysims]

Lucky for the Weaver family that some outsiders forced their way into the siege area to see for themselves what was going on or the truth would never have been known as to what really happened there. Randy Weaver was not a guy that I would have cared to know and he had to be an idiot to take some money from a stranger to saw the end from the barrel of a shotgun, but his family did, in no way, deserve what happened to them. I always thought it to be a little amusing when they displayed his arsenal in front of his compound (a few rifles and pistols with some ammo in front of a plywood shack).

What ever happened to Randy Weaver? He's sill alive according to Wiki, does he still live on the RR land?

 

[hooky]

A child cannot petition for asylum, and legal custody as to who the child belonged was obvious. There never should have been any sort of judicial process. It's cut and dry. The purpose of the raid was to get Elian back into his fathers custody. After taken from his US relatives, his father flw to the US, and was re-united with his son. Both father and son were not allowed to leave until a court ruled in their favor.

"After Elián was returned to his father's custody, he remained in the U.S. while the Miami relatives exhausted their legal options. A three-judge federal panel had ruled that he could not go back to Cuba until he was granted an asylum hearing, but the case turned on the right of the relatives to request that hearing on behalf of the boy. On June 1, 2000, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Elián was too young to file for asylum; only his father could speak for him, and the relatives lacked legal standing"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elián_González_affair#cite_note-29

That begs the question, why was the raid conducted in the first place?

 

[ocsdor]

South Park -- ATF Raid
Two Guys Naked in a Hot Tub (Season 3, Episode 8) - Full Episode Player - South Park Studios

 

[CarmelHP]

I certainly think the ATF botched the raid, but there was going to be bloodshed of some sort anyway you look at how it could have unfolded. psychopaths and pedophiles, with guns, don't like it when the Feds come knockin.

Pedophiles? When was ATF tasked with serving warrants for pedophiles? Is it now ATFP? The sheriff investigated and found no foundation for the allegations. Is this like the drug-dealing allegation the Feds fabricated to get the tanks? You always need the best front-line armor to go up against a plywood shack.

 

[rambone]

I was serving on the NRA Board of Directors at the time of the Waco Genocide and for a number of years afterwards.

The NRA secured permission to arrange for an examination of the "automatic" weapons recovered from the WACO scene. The examinations were to be performed using non-invasive X-ray techniques and were to be conducted by the same firm that investigated the Challenger disaster. The purpose of the examination was to establish whether the weapons were capable of full-auto fire.

At the last minute. Janet Reno rescinded the permission. The excuse offered was that the weapons were "biological hazards" because they had been in the Waco complex with the corpses of the Branch Davidians.

Biological hazards? How do you get rid of a biological hazard? YOU BURN IT!!! Those rifles were no more of a biological hazard than the cigar butts in my ashtray.

Reno knew the Branch Davidians did not possess automatic weapons and to have that fact proven would be a disaster for the government's position.

To my knowledge, no one outside the government has ever been granted access to those weapons, and no one ever will.

Unreal.

You have no shortage of interesting stories, Liberty.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Pedophiles? When was ATF tasked with serving warrants for pedophiles? Is it now ATFP? The sheriff investigated and found no foundation for the allegations. Is this like the drug-dealing allegation the Feds fabricated to get the tanks? You always need the best front-line armor to go up against a plywood shack.

Sorry HP, when a guy calls himself Jesus, annuls the marriages of his members so he can have sex with their wives, fathers 10-12 children from them, states that he is destined to have "60 wives, 80 comcubines, and virgins without number" (Dallas Morning News, 1 March 1993, p. 13-A, Ft. Worth Star Telegram, 3 March 1993 p. A-19), takes a 13 year old as a "spiritual wife" (Michelle Jones), and has another underage girl state (Kiri Jewell) that Koresh "engaged in improper sexual touching and other behaviors," it's kinda not hard to make the leap to him being a batchit crazy, egomaniac, pedobear.

Children as young as 14 and 16 bore Koresh children (legal in Texas with parental consent).

At 22, sicko Koresh got a 15 year old girl pregnant. Like I said, not much of a stretch. He started like young girls very early in his life.

I don't know what that Sheriff was investigating, but apparently he was looking in the wrong places.

 

[chraland51]

The last thing that I heard of Randy Weaver was that several years ago was that he was still alive, but did not recieve the $1M each that his surviving children got as a settlement, but the federal government would not admit any wrong-doing in the case. Janet Reno and Bill Clinton and anyone else associated with Ruby Ridge and Waco should be in jail for life.

 

[CarmelHP]

Sorry HP, when a guy calls himself Jesus, annuls the marriages of his members so he can have sex with their wives, fathers 10-12 children from them, states that he is destined to have "60 wives, 80 comcubines, and virgins without number" (Dallas Morning News, 1 March 1993, p. 13-A, Ft. Worth Star Telegram, 3 March 1993 p. A-19), takes a 13 year old as a "spiritual wife" (Michelle Jones), and has another underage girl state (Kiri Jewell) that Koresh "engaged in improper sexual touching and other behaviors," it's kinda not hard to make the leap to him being a batchit crazy, egomaniac, pedobear.

I'll ask again officer, where is ATF's jurisdiction in this matter? The sheriff investigated and found nothing.

Children as young as 14 and 16 bore Koresh children (legal in Texas with parental consent).

What is the ATF or any federal role in this, even if is true (and the evidence is pretty flimsy)?

At 22, sicko Koresh got a 15 year old girl pregnant. Like I said, not much of a stretch. He started like young girls very early in his life.

ATF is busting down doors laying down machinegun fire for state statutory offense? I suppose that justifies heavy armor.

I don't know what that Sheriff was investigating, but apparently he was looking in the wrong places.

Maybe he had actual witnesses and evidence, and you have rumor and hearsay, ever consider that?

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Sorry HP, when a guy calls himself Jesus, annuls the marriages of his members so he can have sex with their wives, fathers 10-12 children from them, states that he is destined to have "60 wives, 80 comcubines, and virgins without number" (Dallas Morning News, 1 March 1993, p. 13-A, Ft. Worth Star Telegram, 3 March 1993 p. A-19), takes a 13 year old as a "spiritual wife" (Michelle Jones), and has another underage girl state (Kiri Jewell) that Koresh "engaged in improper sexual touching and other behaviors," it's kinda not hard to make the leap to him being a batchit crazy, egomaniac, pedobear.

Children as young as 14 and 16 bore Koresh children (legal in Texas with parental consent).

At 22, sicko Koresh got a 15 year old girl pregnant. Like I said, not much of a stretch. He started like young girls very early in his life.

I don't know what that Sheriff was investigating, but apparently he was looking in the wrong places.

Maybe he was looking in the parts of the book with chapter headings like "Freedom of Religion", "Probable Cause", and "Legal in Texas even though you think its wrong".

 

[Kutnupe14]

Maybe he was looking in the parts of the book with chapter headings like "Freedom of Religion", "Probable Cause", and "Legal in Texas even though you think its wrong".

Polygamy illegal... marriage to a 13 year old, sick, and also illegal

But marrying multiple girls who were, at least 14 years old, A-ok.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'll ask again officer, where is ATF's jurisdiction in this matter? The sheriff investigated and found nothing.

What is the ATF or any federal role in this, even if is true (and the evidence is pretty flimsy)?

ATF is busting down doors laying down machinegun fire for state statutory offense? I suppose that justifies heavy armor.

Maybe he had actual witnesses and evidence, and you have rumor and hearsay, ever consider that?[/QUOTE]

Hearsay? It is fact that he married a 13 year old. It is fact that he had multiple wives. It is fact that Ms. Kiri Jewell testified to a congressional committee that David Koresh had sex with her when she was 10, stating, "King David from the Bible would sleep with young virgins to keep him warm." It is also fact that automatic weapons were found. It is a fact David Koresh's own lawyer, post-event, admitted that Koresh had told him that they had illegal weapons.

 

[J_Wales]

Polygamy illegal... marriage to a 13 year old, sick, and also illegal

But marrying multiple girls who were, at least 14 years old, A-ok.

About the only one that would get a pass on that from the feds today would be muhammad... and maybe a kennedy.