Remembering the Waco Massacre

[CarmelHP]

What is the ATF or any federal role in this, even if is true (and the evidence is pretty flimsy)?

ATF is busting down doors laying down machinegun fire for state statutory offense? I suppose that justifies heavy armor.

Maybe he had actual witnesses and evidence, and you have rumor and hearsay, ever consider that?

Hearsay?

Yes, hearsay.

It is fact that he married a 13 year old.

OK, what is the ATF role in this, you keep avoiding that question. Do you understand the concept of jurisdiction?

It is fact that he had multiple wives.

See above.

It is fact that Ms. Kiri Jewell testified to a congressional committee that David Koresh had sex with her when she was 10, stating, "King David from the Bible would sleep with young virgins to keep him warm."

And her parents said she was lying. So, yes, flimsy.

It is also fact that automatic weapons were found.

Where, which ones, how do you know, based on whose testimony? Why weren't they in the search warrant?

It is a fact David Koresh's own lawyer, post-event, admitted that Koresh had told him that they had illegal weapons.

This is hearsay too. As Koresh wasn't present to testify, and wasn't a party, then yes, hearsay.

 

[Carmelbythecorn]

Don't forget Elian Gonzales too.

Hey...at least he didn't have his finger on the trigger!

 

[drillsgt]

Hey...at least he didn't have his finger on the trigger!

Are those simunition hits on his vest?

 

[lashicoN]

Yep, they did. Legal warrant, legally attempted to be served. After being tipped off that the Feds were coming to serve said legal warrant, the Davidians began arming themselves.

Wait a second, they armed themselves after they were tipped off that the ATF was coming? Then what was that legal warrant for? As HP already said, ATF doesn't deal with rape, apart from the raping they do to real Americans (tax payers) on a daily basis.

Is it ATF SOP to drive up to a house with a super awesome disguise (cattle trailer full of Federal troops) and begin shooting at the house when serving a warrant? Sounds like a pretty poor attempt to me, but it is the Federal government we're talking about. At least they got the address right and left the chainsaws in the armory.

If ATF has such a problem with automatic weapons then why do they carry/use them? It's okay for the Feds, who have no right to keep and bear arms to keep and bear automatic weapons, but the people of the United States get burned alive for doing so? Sounds like we aren't living in a free country to me. Also, if ATF has such a problem with these "assault" weapons, why did they allow thousands to be straw purchased by Mexican cartel members, who in turn used said weapons to kill Americans? Who is a bigger threat to the US, violent Mexican cartels who have been armed by the Feds, or some religious guy in a compound in Texas who may or may not have had sex with a girl seven years younger than he and who may or may not have owned a rifle capable of shooting fast?

ATF is as crooked and lost as they come and that's what happens when we, the American people, allow the creation of a Federal police agency to regulate alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. Those responsible (and I don't mean Koresh) for the killing of all the innocents in Waco, Ruby Ridge and every other fatal raid will surely burn in hell, thankfully.

He does bad things while you sleep to assure your freedom.

What freedom?

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Never really thought alot about this when it was happening, (I was a ) but shortly after, I started to look at all these types of events in a different light and it started to sink in. That was when I first began to question things and sort of "took the red pill". Once you do that, you can never "un-see" the real world around you and tend to find it almost everywhere.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Hearsay?
Yes, hearsay.

Well apparently the "hearsay" about the illegal weapons were correct. Actually, they had a paper trail as the Davidians used UPS to have "items of interest" (ie inert grenades, firearm parts, modifying tools, and black powder) shipped to specific location on their complex called, by the Davidian, "The Mag Bag."
Experts determined that such parts were used to modify weaponry for creating explosive devices and converting semi-auto weapon to full.

They interviewed a ton of former Davidians, confidential informants, and tracked UPS's shipment to the complex. The results led them to believe, correctly, that the Davidian complex may have illegal items.

OK, what is the ATF role in this, you keep avoiding that question. Do you understand the concept of jurisdiction?

See above.

So let me understand what you are attempting to state. If the main purpose of the ATF is alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, and they have reason reason to believe that there should be illegal items, which apply, being held by the suspect, they obtain a warrant. Now if during their pre-investigation they believe that there may also be another crime afoot, then they should simply let that pass?

So if the DEA raids a house to find drugs, no drugs are found but, they find a large cache of illegal weapons, do they not make the arrest?

I can see it now:
"Hey agent Smith, this is Bob from the DEA. Yeah that drug bust we had went nowhere, but we did find a bunch of illegal gunz, you mind coming over with the ATF, and making these arrests since were out of jurisdiction?"

Kinda doesnt work that way HP. It's foolish to believe that if a suspect catches LEs attention for one thing, but other things are discovered outside of that typical agency's alphabet moniker, that they would employ every other agency that would apply.
If a guy deals drugs, weapons, passports, smuggles in food from Honduras, and just so happened to make a threat to the president, the DEA, ATF, DSS, FDA, and SS arent all going to get together to serve that warrant.

And her parents said she was lying. So, yes, flimsy.

Which parent? The one that died in the inferno (the Davidian set themselves), or the one holding hand as she gave her testimony. I guessing dad didn't know she was going to say those bad things about David Koresh, huh?

Where, which ones, how do you know, based on whose testimony? Why weren't they in the search warrant?

The evidence recovered by Rangers from the Davidian complex included 300 rifles and shotguns, including two .50 caliber BMG rifles, 34 AR-15 assault rifles, 61 M-16 assault rifles, 61 AK-47 rifles, and 5 M-14 rifles. More than 40 of these rifles were fully automatic. Additionally, the Rangers recovered 60 pistols and thousands of pounds of live and spent ammunition.

http://www.cesnur.org/testi/DanforthRpt.pdf

page 129

This is hearsay too. As Koresh wasn't present to testify, and wasn't a party, then yes, hearsay.

Yeah, because the guy who defended him in everything else after the tragedy, reverses and throws him under the bus.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Wait a second, they armed themselves after they were tipped off that the ATF was coming? Then what was that legal warrant for? As HP already said, ATF doesn't deal with rape, apart from the raping they do to real Americans (tax payers) on a daily basis.

Is it ATF SOP to drive up to a house with a super awesome disguise (cattle trailer full of Federal troops) and begin shooting at the house when serving a warrant? Sounds like a pretty poor attempt to me, but it is the Federal government we're talking about. At least they got the address right and left the chainsaws in the armory.

If ATF has such a problem with automatic weapons then why do they carry/use them? It's okay for the Feds, who have no right to keep and bear arms to keep and bear automatic weapons, but the people of the United States get burned alive for doing so? Sounds like we aren't living in a free country to me. Also, if ATF has such a problem with these "assault" weapons, why did they allow thousands to be straw purchased by Mexican cartel members, who in turn used said weapons to kill Americans? Who is a bigger threat to the US, violent Mexican cartels who have been armed by the Feds, or some religious guy in a compound in Texas who may or may not have had sex with a girl seven years younger than he and who may or may not have owned a rifle capable of shooting fast?

ATF is as crooked and lost as they come and that's what happens when we, the American people, allow the creation of a Federal police agency to regulate alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. Those responsible (and I don't mean Koresh) for the killing of all the innocents in Waco, Ruby Ridge and every other fatal raid will surely burn in hell, thankfully.

I never said that I agreed with how the raid was carried out, as a matter of fact, I specifically stated that the ATF "botched" it. My argument, whether one agree with the Davidians or not, is that they were knowingly afoul of the law, and got called on it. When the dust settled, the Feds found what they were looking for.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I never said that I agreed with how the raid was carried out, as a matter of fact, I specifically stated that the ATF "botched" it. My argument, whether one agree with the Davidians or not, is that they were knowingly afoul of the law, and got called on it. When the dust settled, the Feds found what they were looking for.

Ok, now I know I am just being an assbag, but were they ever convicted of anything or just charged/accused?

Also, if the Feds showed up at my house I am sure they could find anything they needed to for whatever reason they wanted. Just saying.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Ok, now I know I am just being an assbag, but were they ever convicted of anything or just charged/accused?

Also, if the Feds showed up at my house I am sure they could find anything they needed to for whatever reason they wanted. Just saying.

Yep, 8 (of the 12 surviving adults) were convicted on firearm related offenses, some for voulntary manslaughter (noted because they were aquitted of murder)

 

[CarmelHP]

Well apparently the "hearsay" about the illegal weapons were correct. Actually, they had a paper trail as the Davidians used UPS to have "items of interest" (ie inert grenades, firearm parts, modifying tools, and black powder) shipped to specific location on their complex called, by the Davidian, "The Mag Bag."
Experts determined that such parts were used to modify weaponry for creating explosive devices and converting semi-auto weapon to full.

They interviewed a ton of former Davidians, confidential informants, and tracked UPS's shipment to the complex. The results led them to believe, correctly, that the Davidian complex may have illegal items.

That list of items would have M-1 tanks and agents wildly firing machineguns flattening the houses of half the members of this site. The informants admitted to seeing only semi-auto's.

So let me understand what you are attempting to state. If the main purpose of the ATF is alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, and they have reason reason to believe that there should be illegal items, which apply, being held by the suspect, they obtain a warrant. Now if during their pre-investigation they believe that there may also be another crime afoot, then they should simply let that pass?

So if the DEA raids a house to find drugs, no drugs are found but, they find a large cache of illegal weapons, do they not make the arrest?

I can see it now:
"Hey agent Smith, this is Bob from the DEA. Yeah that drug bust we had went nowhere, but we did find a bunch of illegal gunz, you mind coming over with the ATF, and making these arrests since were out of jurisdiction?"

Kinda doesnt work that way HP. It's foolish to believe that if a suspect catches LEs attention for one thing, but other things are discovered outside of that typical agency's alphabet moniker, that they would employ every other agency that would apply.
If a guy deals drugs, weapons, passports, smuggles in food from Honduras, and just so happened to make a threat to the president, the DEA, ATF, DSS, FDA, and SS arent all going to get together to serve that warrant.

How did they "discover" these things. Questioning the dead people? How is ATF going to make these prosecutions if local LE and prosecutors who have actual jurisdiction say they don't believe it or it never happened? How does post-hoc pretextual reasons justify the initial raid?

Which parent? The one that died in the inferno (the Davidian set themselves), or the one holding hand as she gave her testimony. I guessing dad didn't know she was going to say those bad things about David Koresh, huh?

The one that talked to the sheriff, who was actually at the compound, who was conveniently immolated, not the one with the ax to grind.

The evidence recovered by Rangers from the Davidian complex included 300 rifles and shotguns, including two .50 caliber BMG rifles, 34 AR-15 assault rifles, 61 M-16 assault rifles, 61 AK-47 rifles, and 5 M-14 rifles. More than 40 of these rifles were fully automatic. Additionally, the Rangers recovered 60 pistols and thousands of pounds of live and spent ammunition.

http://www.cesnur.org/testi/DanforthRpt.pdf

page 129

And the convictions on possessing full-auto firearms were all reversed, were they not? I didn't know semi-automatic or even full-auto guns were illegal. They were supposed to have had a class 3 FFL and registered guns. Just saying "full-auto" doesn't convince me. Let's assume they were unregistered, that justifies sending 80 agents to arrest 1 man that they could have had any time and burn alive 80 other people with him, while spending over $50 million, in order to collect around $8000 and change in tax.

Yeah, because the guy who defended him in everything else after the tragedy, reverses and throws him under the bus.

You mean the one that called the Danforth report "a whitewash."

Now, I'm not saying that Randy Weaver or David Koresh were not weird ducks. They knew it themselves and each went out to live in the middle of nowhere because of it. How does that justify the enormous resources and military assaults used to arrest them? There are hundreds of fugitives with multiple violent crimes and murders to their name that we don't do that for.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Ok, now I know I am just being an assbag, but were they ever convicted of anything or just charged/accused?

Also, if the Feds showed up at my house I am sure they could find anything they needed to for whatever reason they wanted. Just saying.

Yep, I quoted myself. What about the part in red? Stuff like that never happens anywhere does it?

 

[MACHINEGUN]

 

[Bunnykid68]

Eww, popcorn, you sharing?

 

[rambone]

... in the inferno (the Davidian set themselves)...

How are you so sure of that?

In post #2 I posted a video of a tank driving through the building's wall and projecting flames inside.

 

[MACHINEGUN]

Eww, popcorn, you sharing?

That's INGO popcorn, everyone can have some!

 

[Carmelbythecorn]

Are those simunition hits on his vest?

I didn't know what simunition was until you mentioned this and I checked it out on the web... I have no idea, but it is plausible...

Good catch!?

 

[mydoghasfleas]

That's INGO popcorn, everyone can have some!

Hey, I found where they keep it, thanks!

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Are those simunition hits on his vest?

Its blood from a previous extraction of a kitten up a tree.

 

[printcraft]

Its blood from a previous extraction of a kitten up a tree.

Cat had it coming.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

What was VERY interesting was how for the first few days during the siege, the reporting that was coming out of the scene was that the feds opened fire first. Then about a week into it, the story changed to the Branch Davidians opening fire first, and you couldn't find ANYTHING in the archives based on the earlier reports. If I hadn't had hard copies of it in the form of my newspaper I would have thought I imagined it. It was a chilling big-brother kind of moment. I'm not given to tinfoil hat conspiracies, but there was definitely a lot more going on there than the feds let on, especially after they excluded the news media from the area.

In "Cold Zero," a book written by an FBI HRT response member he talked a lot about that situation and it's a pretty good insight into the federal mindset at that time.

Before then I never would have thought to mistrust the government. After that event I never trusted it again.

"Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct; nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary." - 1984