Report: In test dogfight, F-35 gets waxed by F-16

[Cameramonkey]

I read that earlier this week on ARFCOM. Mixed opinions over there, including those of current and former military pilots. Definitely not a flattering report. At the same time, there are a lot of things built into that plane to prevent it from having to dog fight as its main mode of defense. In most situations the plane will have seen and shot down the F-16 (or equivalent) long before it turns into a turning fight.

I will give the F-16 some credit though...even at 40 years old, that thing is still a nimble plane and in the hands of a good pilot is very capable.

It is kind of interesting that we're repeating some past history lessons though. In the 50's and 60's we took guns off our fighters as we expected stand off missile engagements from beyond the horizon. It turned out that a lot of those fighters ended up fighting a much different battle then they were designed to fight, including air to ground operations that allowed enemy planes to get well within dog fight range.

Hence the creation of Top Gun and other programs, and the addition of a cannon into the later 3rd and subsequent 4th gen fighters.

As I recall, the design is inherently unstable, which is what makes it so agile; Its ready to go anywhere but the way it is going at that time. In fact, it is so unstable, computers are used to assist the pilot in maintaining control. If something happens to that computer, it becomes VERY hard to fly... kinda like juggling knives while standing on a beach ball. It can be done, but you had better be DAMNED good at it.

I doubt ANYTHING will replace the Warthog. That beast is amazing for what it does.

 

[churchmouse]

As I recall, the design is inherently unstable, which is what makes it so agile; Its ready to go anywhere but the way it is going at that time. In fact, it is so unstable, computers are used to assist the pilot in maintaining control. If something happens to that computer, it becomes VERY hard to fly... kinda like juggling knives while standing on a beach ball. It can be done, but you had better be DAMNED good at it.

I doubt ANYTHING will replace the Warthog. That beast is amazing for what it does.

I was told by those who know far more about these things than I the actual number of computers that it took to run that aircraft and it is quit a few but the number escapes me.

 

[IndyDave1776]

If memory serves the P-51 Mustang was a turd in its 1st edition. Both under powered and a bit ugly.
By the time they unleashed the P-51D on Germany it was a beautiful plane that set the sky's on fire.

The basic design was sound. It was just that in a time when huge leaps were being made on a regular basis, the A-model was pretty badly underpowered by the time we got serious with the Luftwaffe (which was going through the same evolutionary process with its engines, the Daimler-Benz and Junkers inverted V-blocks and the BMW radials. It still wasn't bad for its launch date, and soundly outperformed anything older we had on inventory, like the Curtis P-40 and just flat smoked the Brewster Buffalo which was a front line unit at the beginning of the war, having been placed in service in 1939. By contrast, the F-35 is comparing poorly with a design in service since Carter was in office.

In the case of the P-51, the bubble canopy allowing far greater 360 degree vision and the use of Rolls-Royce Merlin engines built under license by Packard were the two major innovations that made the P-51 the ne plus ultra propeller-driven fighter of the war.

 

[halfmileharry]

If memory serves the P-51 Mustang was a turd in its 1st edition. Both under powered and a bit ugly.
By the time they unleashed the P-51D on Germany it was a beautiful plane that set the sky's on fire.

The Mustang is a prime example of putting a weapon into service and desperately needing to upgrade to get it to become the weapon it's capable of being. Growing pains.
WW1 Battleships in WW2 were upgraded constantly as were the carriers to make them combat fit.
It's always been the case.

 

[actaeon277]

If memory serves the P-51 Mustang was a turd in its 1st edition. Both under powered and a bit ugly.
By the time they unleashed the P-51D on Germany it was a beautiful plane that set the sky's on fire.

And we were at war. Things get rushed in war.
In peace we have time. They also don't like to correct things right away in peace.

 

[churchmouse]

And we were at war. Things get rushed in war.
In peace we have time. They also don't like to correct things right away in peace.

This is true.

 

[churchmouse]

The basic design was sound. It was just that in a time when huge leaps were being made on a regular basis, the A-model was pretty badly underpowered by the time we got serious with the Luftwaffe (which was going through the same evolutionary process with its engines, the Daimler-Benz and Junkers inverted V-blocks and the BMW radials. It still wasn't bad for its launch date, and soundly outperformed anything older we had on inventory, like the Curtis P-40 and just flat smoked the Brewster Buffalo which was a front line unit at the beginning of the war, having been placed in service in 1939. By contrast, the F-35 is comparing poorly with a design in service since Carter was in office.

In the case of the P-51, the bubble canopy allowing far greater 360 degree vision and the use of Rolls-Royce Merlin engines built under license by Packard were the two major innovations that made the P-51 the ne plus ultra propeller-driven fighter of the war.

All true.

 

[halfmileharry]

Our weapons all evolve. If it's a good design with potential it will survive.
I am finally accepting a few things like this.
Many decades ago in a land far far away I was totally disgusted by a weapon they issued me and made me use. Even in the newest configuration the M16 4 battle rifle has a ways to go. It will NEVER be perfect but it's evolved into a pretty fair small arms weapon.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The Mustang is a prime example of putting a weapon into service and desperately needing to upgrade to get it to become the weapon it's capable of being. Growing pains.
WW1 Battleships in WW2 were upgraded constantly as were the carriers to make them combat fit.
It's always been the case.

The comparison is not really fair. During the Dreadnought-era (accounting for the battleships built immediately prior to World War I), radar did not exist and optics were not so developed as in the buildup to World War II. As a consequence, the armor and structural qualities of the ship were designed for gunfire of much greater normality than the plunging shells from longer ranges found in World War II. Submarines were not yet developed as weapons suitable for use in naval engagements and aircraft would not even be considered a potential threat until after the war. Consequently, the World War I battleship was designed in a very different way for very different conditions and purposes than the battleship of World War II, with older examples retrofitted poorly but as best the ability to modify them would allow when they were brought into a new generation of warfare. The Mustang was simply a solid design that needed some improvement to be a cutting edge machine, which it eventually became.

 

[actaeon277]

The comparison is not really fair. During the Dreadnought-era (accounting for the battleships built immediately prior to World War I), radar did not exist and optics were not so developed as in the buildup to World War II. As a consequence, the armor and structural qualities of the ship were designed for gunfire of much greater normality than the plunging shells from longer ranges found in World War II. Submarines were not yet developed as weapons suitable for use in naval engagements and aircraft would not even be considered a potential threat until after the war. Consequently, the World War I battleship was designed in a very different way for very different conditions and purposes than the battleship of World War II, with older examples retrofitted poorly but as best the ability to modify them would allow when they were brought into a new generation of warfare. The Mustang was simply a solid design that needed some improvement to be a cutting edge machine, which it eventually became.

Don't forget, the Mustang was designed for a better engine. It's not the fault of the plane that the designers of the engine were not able to deliver when it was ready. So while that configuration with the smaller engine WAS the first, it was NOT the first configuration (design)

 

[OakRiver]

Here is another perspective; Why The "F-35 v F-16" Article Is Garbage | Fighter Sweep

 

[Birds Away]

As I recall, the design is inherently unstable, which is what makes it so agile; Its ready to go anywhere but the way it is going at that time. In fact, it is so unstable, computers are used to assist the pilot in maintaining control. If something happens to that computer, it becomes VERY hard to fly... kinda like juggling knives while standing on a beach ball. It can be done, but you had better be DAMNED good at it.

I doubt ANYTHING will replace the Warthog. That beast is amazing for what it does.

All modern military fighter aircraft are "fly by wire". Without computer assistance they would not be controllable.

 

[Birds Away]

The comparison is not really fair. During the Dreadnought-era (accounting for the battleships built immediately prior to World War I), radar did not exist and optics were not so developed as in the buildup to World War II. As a consequence, the armor and structural qualities of the ship were designed for gunfire of much greater normality than the plunging shells from longer ranges found in World War II. Submarines were not yet developed as weapons suitable for use in naval engagements and aircraft would not even be considered a potential threat until after the war. Consequently, the World War I battleship was designed in a very different way for very different conditions and purposes than the battleship of World War II, with older examples retrofitted poorly but as best the ability to modify them would allow when they were brought into a new generation of warfare. The Mustang was simply a solid design that needed some improvement to be a cutting edge machine, which it eventually became.

That was complicated when ships, like now, are used for missions they were not designed for. Admirals always seem to be the last to know how to effectively use a particular design. Case in point: HMS Hood.

 

[halfmileharry]

Here is another perspective; Why The "F-35 v F-16" Article Is Garbage | Fighter Sweep

Good article. It was the points I so poorly tried to make.

 

[Thor]

The training units are still experimenting with optimum engagement and employment considerations for the F35. They have been BFMing these things for a bit now and I've heard no complaints from the guys actually flying them...or chest pounding from the viper pilots flying against them. Since we're still trying to figure out required training space issues, I don't think anyone knows what the actual best performance and maneuvers are yet. Heck, they haven't even installed the gun yet...it's not in an operational unit...

I personally thought the Boeing jet should have won the competition back years ago. It came with vectored thrust on the first version and it was the only truly joint aircraft with one version that you added about 800lb of parts to to make it VSTOL...but it was hampered by looks (fighter pilots don't want to fly a pregnant guppy) and politics (LM's investment in the TX plant for the F22, they are now building the F35 and that is why we could start F22 production again).

That being said...the F14 was good at fleet defense, best aircraft for the job. It could drop bombs too. In a turning fight those big energy indicators (auto sweep wings) would tell you when it was ripe for the picking. It could maybe hold its own in a turning fight with an F4...not an F15 or 16.

The A10...best CAS aircraft ever. The people trying to kill it just don't like the mission. The arguments that the intel will be good enough and the weapons smart enough so CAS could be performed at a higher, safer, altitude are complete and utter BS. Now that another ground war in Europe is a possibility taking the best tank killer ever out of the inventory is one of the dumbest ideas around. Even congresscritters can see that. Unfortunately, there are very few leaders left in the military at any decision making level. They are now tied up with 'management' and 'business cases', and 'enterprise plans'...they are sensitive, and multicultural, and gender neutral....and I want to

Morning coffee rant off...

 

[T.Lex]

I've got nothing to add, really. Especially now that Thor corrected that the F-14 was not really a very good dogfighter (Top Gun notwithstanding). Its strength was being able to fly really fast to shoot really powerful A-A missiles to keep attacking aircraft at a standoff distance.

The Bombcat was a later development to help keep it relevant post-Cold War.

The F-35 is a USAF budgetary wet dream. And not much else.

 

[Thor]

And much like the A10 was designed to carry the GAU8 30mm gun, the F14 was designed around that RADAR. They could get first hits out to 300NM...then shoot a Phoenix at it. Not very good looking down but that wasn't their job.

 

[churchmouse]

And much like the A10 was designed to carry the GAU8 30mm gun, the F14 was designed around that RADAR. They could get first hits out to 300NM...then shoot a Phoenix at it. Not very good looking down but that wasn't their job.

And.................Faster than a speeding bullet.

Well, .45 ACP maybe but it was damn fast.

 

[T.Lex]

And much like the A10 was designed to carry the GAU8 30mm gun, the F14 was designed around that RADAR. They could get first hits out to 300NM...then shoot a Phoenix at it. Not very good looking down but that wasn't their job.

Yep - I believe Iran used theirs (and maybe still would) basically as AWACS, because even those F-14s had more powerful radar than what they could achieve. Which is also a lesson in where not to export your best weapon systems.

 

[JettaKnight]

No surprise here.
To many chef's in the soup.

Post 2014, all the cool kids say "Too Many Cooks".


Start brushing up on your Chinese, everyone.