Report: In test dogfight, F-35 gets waxed by F-16

[MrSmitty]

I seem to recall saying something about this not all that long ago although it may or may not have been here. In any event, no device intended to be all things to all people has ever succeeded at doing anything well. The favorite argument is that there are to be several very different variants, none of which are worth a damn for close combat. Churchmouse is dead center. If we wanted a dedicated interceptor platform, we had one in the F-14 (which didn't do bad a dogfighting either) and it seems that if we really needed stealth, we could have built a larger dedicated interceptor platform in stealth. I would say that a scaled-down B-2 type platform would have worked nicely, or the 'flying Dorito' which had been under development for the Navy and was cancelled would also have done nicely in this role, especially since it was developed as a catapult-launched, wire-arrested carrier platform from the beginning, hence damned durable.

For an interim upgrade, we could have developed something like the F-16I (Israel's home-customized two-seater combining the economy and nimble handling of the F-16 with the better situational awareness and more complex sensors available when a dedicated operator is available) or the F-16E/F which is the most advanced strictly US built variant operated exclusively by the UAE--yes, for the first time in our history we have exported a better machine than we operate ourselves.

So far as I am concerned, the F-35 is the F-111 all over again. Back then Robert McNamara decided that he could trim the Pentagon budget by making everyone use one airframe for all purposes. As testified before Congress in the Second Revolt of the Admirals in response to McNamara's claim that more powerful engines could cure the performance problems with the F-111, "There isn't enough thrust in all Christendom to make a fighter out of the F-111." True enough, it made a decent interceptor, a decent bomber, and a ****-poor fighter. It looks like we have rediscovered the same thing, only this time with all our eggs in one basket.

Just for fun, here is a link to the 'Flying Dorito':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_A-12_Avenger_II

During the first Gulf war Hussein (Saddam, not Barak) started leaking oil into the gulf....we had '16's, "15's, A-10's '117's to work with...what plane did they use to drop the bombs to stop the oil flow......my old Bird the F-111, it may have not been a fighter...but it could hit accurately! I once printed a photo of strike film of a "toss" from 5 miles away......dead on target!!! I love the Vark!

 

[IndyDave1776]

During the first Gulf war Hussein (Saddam, not Barak) started leaking oil into the gulf....we had '16's, "15's, A-10's '117's to work with...what plane did they use to drop the bombs to stop the oil flow......my old Bird the F-111, it may have not been a fighter...but it could hit accurately! I once printed a photo of strike film of a "toss" from 5 miles away......dead on target!!! I love the Vark!

Yes, it was a great platform for what it was good at. Unfortunately, filling the roles of the F-14, F-15, and F-16, as intended, is not part of that capability. I would argue that this is a capability we need, whether it can be combined with an interceptor platform or not, but I sure as the universe don't see it combining with a fighter or low and slow ground attack platform.

 

[BugI02]

If memory serves the P-51 Mustang was a turd in its 1st edition. Both under powered and a bit ugly.
By the time they unleashed the P-51D on Germany it was a beautiful plane that set the sky's on fire.

With a little help from Mr Rolls and Mr Royce

 

[churchmouse]

With a little help from Mr Rolls and Mr Royce

Yup.....The Merlin is still a bad bad boy to this day.

One of the later Miss Budwiesers (unlimited Hydro) ran a version of the Griffon. There were many nitrous tanks lined up inside the hull.

 

[BugI02]

They said that before Vietnam. Then our kill ratio superiority took a nose dive.

Or are you planning on replacing the fleet with drones.
Cause I'm sure they'll work fine as long as we go after non-technical enemies and stay away from anyone with a technological base and can jam them.

Next gen likely autonomous. Little or nothing to jam

 

[BugI02]

Yup.....The Merlin is still a bad bad boy to this day.

One of the later Miss Budwiesers (unlimited Hydro) ran a version of the Griffon. There were many nitrous tanks lined up inside the hull.

The CEO of Scotts-Miracle Gro has a 'D' model I see quite a bit of. Even discounting the astronomical price of parts and specialized skills of your mechanic, the 120 gallons/hr of $7+ per gallon aviation gasoline is a jaw-dropper. But they sound like nothing else and are supremely beautiful in flight.

 

[semperfi211]

I still think the FA-18 Hornet and Super Hornet and Harriers are the best aircraft the Navy and the Marines have for our missions. If it aint broke don't fix it.

 

[churchmouse]

The CEO of Scotts-Miracle Gro has a 'D' model I see quite a bit of. Even discounting the astronomical price of parts and specialized skills of your mechanic, the 120 gallons/hr of $7+ per gallon aviation gasoline is a jaw-dropper. But they sound like nothing else and are supremely beautiful in flight.

When I would go down and help on the farm in my pre-teen years up to maybe 14 or so there was a group of guys that had a hanger at the old green castle airport. In that hanger was a "D" in all of its glory. When I 1st saw it the engine and most of the fuselage were removed. It was being re-built. I got to help (sweep the floor, take out the trash etc) and eventually when they trusted me I got to take some things apart. It was 4 years later and one fall day they were warming up the merlin. I was right there. After a long drawn out process they were taxiing the plane around the grounds. 2 days later it went wheels up. It was amazing to watch. It flew out of site and 10 minutes later it made a tree top pass over the airport. Military power.......I have never been the same since.

 

[OutdoorDad]

I still think the FA-18 Hornet and Super Hornet and Harriers are the best aircraft the Navy and the Marines have for our missions. If it aint broke don't fix it.

if this was an effective strategy, the a4 would still be flying off of our carriers.

 

[BugI02]

When I would go down and help on the farm in my pre-teen years up to maybe 14 or so there was a group of guys that had a hanger at the old green castle airport. In that hanger was a "D" in all of its glory. When I 1st saw it the engine and most of the fuselage were removed. It was being re-built. I got to help (sweep the floor, take out the trash etc) and eventually when they trusted me I got to take some things apart. It was 4 years later and one fall day they were warming up the merlin. I was right there. After a long drawn out process they were taxiing the plane around the grounds. 2 days later it went wheels up. It was amazing to watch. It flew out of site and 10 minutes later it made a tree top pass over the airport. Military power.......I have never been the same since.

It probably just means I'm old, but I'm WAY more interested in the designs from an era where form didn't have to quite so rigidly follow function. No modern airliner is quite as viscerally moving as a Lockheed Constellation.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I remember in 1977 my godfather, who was the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the F-106 Squadron stationed at McChord AFB at the time, told me how their F-106s with 1960s analog computer technology, were still good enough to outfight F-14s and F-15s in the intercept role. If they got closer than 20 miles or so, it was a different story. The lesson here is that when you have a good-performing platform which is designed for a particular role, it generally performs well in that role for a long time unless some major technological or situational change makes it obsolete. And as we've discovered over and over (but never seem to learn) "good enough" can sometimes beat the hell out of "technologically superior" if it's used correctly under the right circumstances. From the looks of it, we have to work with "good enough" against our next First World enemy with superior technology.

 

[Sling10mm]

So is the F-35 the El Camino of the military aircraft world?

Really, I understand the idea of going with a single platform to simplfy logistics and save cost, but did anyone believe they would accomplish this? The Pentagon Wars is a great insight into military procurement projects. Sheep specs anyone?

 

[Libertarian01]

So is the F-35 the El Camino of the military aircraft world?

Really, I understand the idea of going with a single platform to simplfy logistics and save cost, but did anyone believe they would accomplish this? The Pentagon Wars is a great insight into military procurement projects. Sheep specs anyone?

"They're alive and kicking."

I loved that movie.

Doug

 

[actaeon277]

Disastrous F-35 vs. F-16 face-off was also a battle of philosophies | Ars Technica

[h=1]Disastrous F-35 vs. F-16 face-off was also a battle of philosophies[/h][h=2]Ironically, the older plane was a response to the same assumptions.[/h]

 

[Thor]

I remember in 1977 my godfather, who was the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the F-106 Squadron stationed at McChord AFB at the time, told me how their F-106s with 1960s analog computer technology, were still good enough to outfight F-14s and F-15s in the intercept role. If they got closer than 20 miles or so, it was a different story. The lesson here is that when you have a good-performing platform which is designed for a particular role, it generally performs well in that role for a long time unless some major technological or situational change makes it obsolete. And as we've discovered over and over (but never seem to learn) "good enough" can sometimes beat the hell out of "technologically superior" if it's used correctly under the right circumstances. From the looks of it, we have to work with "good enough" against our next First World enemy with superior technology.

The Delta Dagger ROCKED in the intercept role. It would still if they hadn't quickly shot them all down as drones to make sure they wouldn't be pulled out of the bone yard and refitted with AESA RADAR and Slammers. It's still the fasted single engine a/c ever and flew super on more missions than the F-15...pretty much every mission in airspace that permitted it. Their unrefueled sortie range was another big plus for the continental defense mission.

Even today they'd only have to outmaneuver bombers. The things an air defense fighter needs are high speed, long range, and big missiles. They carried the Air 2A as an option... .5 Megatons of big da*n missile. Need to take out a launch box of 'insert your favorite Ruskie bomber here'? Nothing like a nuklar air to air rocketski.

The only thing 'better' was a Bomark.

 

[BugI02]

+1. If you remember the Bomarc you are older than I thought (nearly as old as ME, gasp!)

 

[Thor]

That's because my online persona is so youthful and wrinkle free.

I remember the Bomarc...I just can't spell it. When the Bomarc's are in the air you have to run away even faster than after you've launched the AIR2A!

 

[churchmouse]

That's because my online persona is so youthful and wrinkle free.

I remember the Bomarc...I just can't spell it. When the Bomarc's are in the air you have to run away even faster than after you've launched the AIR2A!

I remember the dagger and the Bomarc and yes, I am not young.

My Grandparents lived on Key West from the late 50's until they passed. I remember standing on the back patio looking at the huge earthen mound that shielded the one of the many missile battery's on the island. 2 times a day they would elevate/rotate the birds. I always tried to watch through Gramps big (to me at the time) spy glasses. One time I caught a glimpse of a reflection.......It was someone watching me watch them. I was maybe 12.
The birds were hard to distinguish what they were but they were there for Cuba

 

[Thor]

The Bomarc was a northern tier weapon that was positioned to hit the most likely bomber routes. I believe the furthest south they were deployed was VA. FL was defended with Nike and Hawk missiles. Key West with Hawks only I think and then not until about the Cuban Missile crisis.

Even so, it's probably a good thing that you never wandered over for a closer look...military security folks tend not to have much of a sense of humor.

 

[HoughMade]

You mean to tell me that an airplane with 40 years of refinement of technology, hardware and tactics bested an airplane that's still in development?

Shocking, I tells ya, shocking.