Straw purchase?

[HoughMade]

...In general, straw purchases are legal except in cases where the ultimate receiver of goods or services uses those goods or services in the commission of a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser, or if the ultimate possessor is not legally able to purchase the goods or services. In some jurisdictions, straw purchases are legal although the end user is not legally able to purchase the good or service himself or herself...

I'll just come out and say this. Cutting a pasting from Wikipedia and passing it off as legal advice is reckless and as to the quoted section, in reference to firearms purchases DEAD WRONG. HOPEFULLY, when people happen across this topic in the future, they will look at the posts by those who have actually researched the issue and will not rely upon this.

Sorry to be harsh, but this kind of thing can be dangerous and is irresponsible.

...I'm curious where you found this paragraph...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase

 

[printcraft]

So what is the INTENT of the straw purchase law?
A: To keep a prohibited persons from purchasing a firearm.
B: To keep a non prohibited persons from purchasing a firearm.

 

[HoughMade]

So what is the INTENT of the straw purchase law?
A: To keep a prohibited persons from purchasing a firearm.

Yes

B: To keep a non prohibited persons from purchasing a firearm from a firearms dealer without filling out the appropriate paperwork

It's right there in Abramski.

 

[MarkC]

Interesting first post. Welcome to INGO.


I'm curious where you found this paragraph.

There are... imperfections... in what it describes.

They way you put that, made me laugh out loud. Master of understatement. Outstanding. Just outstanding.

 

[T.Lex]

They way you put that, made me laugh out loud. Master of understatement. Outstanding. Just outstanding.

He's new. I didn't want to overwhelm him.

I'll leave that to The Bearded One.

 

[HoughMade]

He's new. I didn't want to overwhelm him.

I'll leave that to The Bearded One.

He's no longer bearded...and looks a good decade younger...the weight loss didn't hurt.

View attachment 60886

I truly don't want to scare anyone away. Sorry if I was too enthusiastic in my response, and I am sure there is much we can learn from our Plinker friend, but everyone, myself included, would do well to discern the areas in which we have some level of mastery, and state, with confidence, conclusions in those arenas and not in those we have no expertise.

 

[printcraft]

Yes

It's right there in Abramski.

So as long as non prohibited person, buying from a dealer, fills out the 4473 paperwork, it doesn't matter where the money comes from?

 

[T.Lex]

He's no longer bearded...and looks a good decade younger...the weight loss didn't hurt.

View attachment 60886

I truly don't want to scare anyone away. Sorry if I was too enthusiastic in my response, and I am sure there is much we can learn from our Plinker friend, but everyone, myself included, would do well to discern the areas in which we have some level of mastery, and state, with confidence, conclusions in those arenas and not in those we have no expertise.

Wait.

That guy looks fresh out of law school!

(I thought The Beard was a seasonal thing....?)

And, some people are so tactical that they don't need a beard to be considered Bearded.

Or, maybe I didn't mean THAT kind of "beard"....

So as long as non prohibited person, buying from a dealer, fills out the 4473 paperwork, it doesn't matter where the money comes from?

Sometimes I'm really not sure if you read the actual posts.... It matters very much "where the money comes from" - well, "who" the money comes from.

 

[HoughMade]

So as long as non prohibited person, buying from a dealer, fills out the 4473 paperwork, it doesn't matter where the money comes from?

Who is ultimately the buyer? For whom is the gun? Who is going to use it? These are the operative questions. The source of the money is one factor that can be evidence of a straw purchase if that is in question.

 

[printcraft]

Seems like bad wording and vast overreach beyond the original intent of the law.

Who are we wanting to go after here? What is the purpose if it's just "everybody"?

 

[T.Lex]

Seems like bad wording and vast overreach beyond the original intent of the law.

Who are we wanting to go after here? What is the purpose if it's just "everybody"?

The "original intent" was to get people who gave money to someone else to buy a firearm for them, and that someone else then purchased a firearm legally and gave it to the person.

Seems to me very few people buy firearms that way.

 

[indiucky]

He's no longer bearded...and looks a good decade younger...the weight loss didn't hurt.

I like those frames on your glasses...They look solid...I hate frames that get loose after a couple of months but those look solid...

 

[HoughMade]

I like those frames on your glasses...They look solid...I hate frames that get loose after a couple of months but those look solid...

I like them. I was going for a "21st Century Floyd the Barber" look.

 

[printcraft]

The "original intent" was to get people who gave money to someone else to buy a firearm for them, and that someone else then purchased a firearm legally and gave it to the person.

Seems to me very few people buy firearms that way.

WTH good is that? Stopping a person from buying a gun when they are NOT prohibited from buying a gun?

So it's NOT to try to stop felon Bill (who just got out of the joint after doing 3 years for armed robbery) from trying to buy a gun by giving his girlfriend Tracy the money and sending her into B&B Guns?

 

[JettaKnight]

A straw purchase or nominee purchase is any purchase wherein an agent agrees to acquire a good or service for someone who is unable or unwilling to purchase the good or service themselves, and the agent transfers the goods or services to that person after purchasing them. In general, straw purchases are legal except in cases where the ultimate receiver of goods or services uses those goods or services in the commission of a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser, or if the ultimate possessor is not legally able to purchase the goods or services. In some jurisdictions, straw purchases are legal although the end user is not legally able to purchase the good or service himself or herself.

DId you bother reading the section dealing specifically with firearms?

In the United States, a straw purchaser of a firearm at a federally licensed firearm dealership who lies about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun can be charged with making false statements on a federal Firearms Transaction Record. If a firearm is purchased as a gift, the transaction is not a straw purchase, and the person buying the gift is considered the end user. It is illegal for any person not in possession of a Federal Firearms License to purchase a firearm with the intention of resale. Private purchases in lawful sales made outside of federally regulated dealerships are not subject to such rules and are legal unless the gun is used in a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser

 

[Alpo]

I know where I have seen that face before.

Hockey ref. Called me for icing when I didn't.

....

or it could have been the guy selling cotton candy at the state fair....

....

 

[T.Lex]

WTH good is that? Stopping a person from buying a gun when they are NOT prohibited from buying a gun?

So it's NOT to try to stop felon Bill (who just got out of the joint after doing 3 years for armed robbery) from trying to buy a gun by giving his girlfriend Tracy the money and sending her into B&B Guns?

Yes, it is.

Person A gives Person B money to purchase a gun and give the gun (or resale) to Person A. That's the basic scenario. The "proper" person status of Person A is not a criteria.

Now, if Person A is Bill Felonydude, then we can all agree that's bad. If Person A is Jill Domesticviolencevictim (which also happens to be Welsh for "proper person"), then we probably would rather her be armed.

A law could easily be written to exempt the latter from the definition of straw purchase. But, right now, that's not the law.

 

[printcraft]

Person A gives Person B money to purchase a gun and give the gun (or resale) to Person A. That's the basic scenario. The "proper" person status of Person A is not a criteria.

Badly written or thought out law. Unless, they were trying to make purchasing a firearm more difficult for "everyone".

You can see this in effect in the shotgun/shipping thread. Both proper persons getting jammed up in a gotcha law situation.

Jill Domesticviolencevictim who doesn't know the ABC's get's caught up as well.

.....Now, if Person A is Bill Felonydude, then we can all agree that's bad. .....

Yes, that is who this law should address directly.
If Bill Armedrobber Felonydude does this, and gets caught, I'm ok with extreme punishment being handed down.

 

[T.Lex]

We the people can have our duly elected representatives make that common sense change in the law.

It would also clean up firearms-as-gifts.

 

[2A_Tom]

I was in a LGS when three young guys were instructing an elderly grey haired lady who was making the "actual" purchace that its that one right there that you want, pointing to the AK.

I would not have made that sale.