Subway armed robbery footage - whats the best action for an armed citizen?

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Door guy probably bolts at the first bang, regardless of where it comes from.

I wonder if both crimes were perpetrated by the same guys. Or is jumping up on the counters common thug moves?

 

[churchmouse]

Door guy probably bolts at the first bang, regardless of where it comes from.

I wonder if both crimes were perpetrated by the same guys. Or is jumping up on the counters common thug moves?

Well, if it means style points then yes.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Well, if it means style points then yes.

Yes. There is that!

 

[Coach]

The it depends who I am with answer is popular. I am not in anyway being critical of it here. But I do have a question or maybe two. If you are in a place of business and an armed robbery is going down and the wife and kids are with you there will be no response or action taken? Going to wait until the gun is pointed at you or the family then take action? When is the bright line crossed to start taking the fight to them? If it is an armed robbery and the bad guy has the gun out waving it around how long do you have until the gun is pointed at you and yours?

Just asking these to try and get beyond the family being with me condition that comes up very often.

 

[Trigger Time]

In the moment you dont know if the bad guy with the gun and his lookout (must assumed armed) is going to kill all witnesses in the place or not. This is an absolute shoot and fight situation for me
Still easy to quarterback it with both scenarios but you either have the will to fight or you dont In my opinion. Bad People pointing guns at me just makes me want to kill them.
It has nothing to do with being macho. It's a instinct to fight to live and to kill bad people before they kill me.
Someone committing armed robbery is not rational, so why would I assume they will let me live?

 

[churchmouse]

The it depends who I am with answer is popular. I am not in anyway being critical of it here. But I do have a question or maybe two. If you are in a place of business and an armed robbery is going down and the wife and kids are with you there will be no response or action taken? Going to wait until the gun is pointed at you or the family then take action? When is the bright line crossed to start taking the fight to them? If it is an armed robbery and the bad guy has the gun out waving it around how long do you have until the gun is pointed at you and yours?

Just asking these to try and get beyond the family being with me condition that comes up very often.

With me it is as soon as his attention is put anyway close to me and mine if the family is with. I am very much the junk yard dog when it comes to my spouse/G-kids. My grown kids would take it to them if the conditions warranted.
Thing is, if I am with most anybody I know my response is likely to be 2nd or later to theirs. I am not aware of anyone I would be with that would not be well armed and as well trained. For the most part.

I realize not everyone thinks aggressively and I am by far less aggressive these days. But again, we are just surmising on the internet.

 

[bobzilla]

If by chance I am sitting there solo or with friends/family and this goes down yes my gun will be in my hand but at the low ready. Out of casual sight. The room will be scanned. It will be obvious who is an active player. If the money is taken and the assheads roll then my gun returns to its holster. If things escalate I will defend my position. If I am aware of the #2 man he will be covered when the 1st idiot has been stopped if possible.
If your SA is in full function these guys are to easy to spot.

But this is all just thinking out loud on the internet.

This. Be a good witness. Defend myself/friends family first. Get our alive. Get to cover and cover family/friends. Depending on the friends there will likely be more than one gun at the low ready.

 

[WestSider]

Bottom line is Everyone is going to come up with a version of the story where they come out on top.. which is why I usually stay away from these kind of threads. Now we have gone to the gun being waved around to now itÂ’s being pointed at me... again everyone has to do what they feel is necessary in the moment based on the information available at the time. Just be ready to live with there decision and defend it in court.

 

[T.Lex]

The it depends who I am with answer is popular. I am not in anyway being critical of it here. But I do have a question or maybe two. If you are in a place of business and an armed robbery is going down and the wife and kids are with you there will be no response or action taken? Going to wait until the gun is pointed at you or the family then take action? When is the bright line crossed to start taking the fight to them? If it is an armed robbery and the bad guy has the gun out waving it around how long do you have until the gun is pointed at you and yours?

Just asking these to try and get beyond the family being with me condition that comes up very often.

To me, there are rarely bright lines - life is mostly balancing different factors.

IMHO there is a bell curve of these kinds of encounters. At one extreme, you're in the most advantageous cover possible, with a clear shot on an unsuspecting, visibly violent and imminently seriously harmful person. Clear cut self defense and the means to do so safely.

At the other end is a mix, where once scenario is that the BG gets lucky and takes me out first with a headshot before I even know what's happening. A half-step worse is that he gets a loved one in a vulnerable position and appears willing and able to do significant damage before I can even draw. That's a nightmare scenario.* (Wait - wrong thread.)

The vast majority of scenarios will be somewhere in between. My own personal balancing act is to take incremental steps to improve the safety of me and mine, such as drawing discretely and waiting - nothing says you HAVE to shoot once the weapon is drawn. If BGs make it out without shooting anyone and without getting shot, no big deal to me.

I guess, the closest thing to a bright line for me would be if I had the reasonable belief that the BG would imminently cause serious bodily injury to someone, then I'd probably feel compelled to do something to stop it.

* Another variation of this is that I make a bad decision based on incomplete information and harm/kill an innocent person.

 

[alabasterjar]

The it depends who I am with answer is popular. I am not in anyway being critical of it here. But I do have a question or maybe two. If you are in a place of business and an armed robbery is going down and the wife and kids are with you there will be no response or action taken? Going to wait until the gun is pointed at you or the family then take action? When is the bright line crossed to start taking the fight to them? If it is an armed robbery and the bad guy has the gun out waving it around how long do you have until the gun is pointed at you and yours?

Just asking these to try and get beyond the family being with me condition that comes up very often.

Good point. My wife and I have discussed our actions in scenarios like this and frequently discuss this with our 4 kids. Generally speaking, my (well armed) wife's goal is to fade into the background/out an exit as best as possible with the kids while I try to move into a defensive position in the opposite direction, if possible. I guess I play the role of the killdeer mom lol. I was one of the ones who mentioned being reluctant to engage in this scenario. Take a look at the picture of the restaurant. There is no place for cover or concealment from what I can see, and I don't see a second exit. By myself, I can try to move and fire. With wife and 4 kids in tow, WE make a much larger target & I'm not sure actively engaging in that scenario is the right thing to do. If possible, I would still pull my weapon & prepare myself for the opportunity to take the battle to him, but I feel my options would be more limited. I'm curious to hear others responses/thoughts on this.

 

[Denny347]

If you are in a place of business and an armed robbery is going down and the wife and kids are with you there will be no response or action taken? Going to wait until the gun is pointed at you or the family then take action? When is the bright line crossed to start taking the fight to them? If it is an armed robbery and the bad guy has the gun out waving it around how long do you have until the gun is pointed at you and yours?

It depends... Proximity. Numbers. Weapons used by bad guys, weapon carried by good guy. etc.

 

[churchmouse]

Good point. My wife and I have discussed our actions in scenarios like this and frequently discuss this with our 4 kids. Generally speaking, my (well armed) wife's goal is to fade into the background/out an exit as best as possible with the kids while I try to move into a defensive position in the opposite direction, if possible. I guess I play the role of the killdeer mom lol. I was one of the ones who mentioned being reluctant to engage in this scenario. Take a look at the picture of the restaurant. There is no place for cover or concealment from what I can see, and I don't see a second exit. By myself, I can try to move and fire. With wife and 4 kids in tow, WE make a much larger target & I'm not sure actively engaging in that scenario is the right thing to do. If possible, I would still pull my weapon & prepare myself for the opportunity to take the battle to him, but I feel my options would be more limited. I'm curious to hear others responses/thoughts on this.

As to my spouse....to meet her she is pretty laid back. Almost meek, until you do something as idiotic as what we are discussing. If she felt threatened or the kids were it would be on. Right now. She scares me sometimes.......

Seriously, her rationalization would be to defend.

 

[Vigilant]

Training is the way. Even if highly trained, you can still mess this up, badly.

Nah, that’s what two guns are for! Go straight Milla Jovovich on some asses?

 

[alabasterjar]

As to my spouse....to meet her she is pretty laid back. Almost meek, until you do something as idiotic as what we are discussing. If she felt threatened or the kids were it would be on. Right now. She scares me sometimes.......

Seriously, her rationalization would be to defend.

We have been in a couple situations where mama bear was pressed to "fierce defense mode". When looking back on those incidents and what might have happened if they had gone South, all I can think of is "may God have mercy on your soul", lol.

 

[Trigger Time]

We have been in a couple situations where mama bear was pressed to "fierce defense mode". When looking back on those incidents and what might have happened if they had gone South, all I can think of is "may God have mercy on your soul", lol.

Yeah exactly.

 

[Thor]

The it depends who I am with answer is popular. I am not in anyway being critical of it here. But I do have a question or maybe two. If you are in a place of business and an armed robbery is going down and the wife and kids are with you there will be no response or action taken? Going to wait until the gun is pointed at you or the family then take action? When is the bright line crossed to start taking the fight to them? If it is an armed robbery and the bad guy has the gun out waving it around how long do you have until the gun is pointed at you and yours?

Just asking these to try and get beyond the family being with me condition that comes up very often.

Criminals pulling a gun out and threatening people is my bright line. There is no safe distance, direction, or response time at that point. You are seconds between them threatening the cashier to killing you and yours. If you assume anything else you will not have time to respond. In a place as small as that Subway a person with a knife is a valid threat...

But as CM says...just internet chat...

 

[churchmouse]

We have been in a couple situations where mama bear was pressed to "fierce defense mode". When looking back on those incidents and what might have happened if they had gone South, all I can think of is "may God have mercy on your soul", lol.

Not for open discussion but we have had a few of these situations as well. Looking back I feel the same way.

 

[FreedomGamer]

I’d say it would be best to not engage. Simply put even if you the second perp. doesn’t have a firearm he could still grab you as you drew on the other guy. Though at the end of the day you might just react and pop the guy on the counter. That could scare the other off.

 

[bwframe]

Are we carrying enough gun to actually fair well in this circumstance, if it actually comes to shooting?

Will a j-frame or an LCP or even a G43 be adequate, in your hands, to place precise stopping shots at some distance?
Will they have enough capacity to fight a couple thugs with G19's (and nothing to lose)?

 

[Thor]

I look at it as I've got everything to lose and they are willing to take it. Should I do nothing? I would choose otherwise. And yes, use enough gun.