Subway armed robbery footage - whats the best action for an armed citizen?

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Who carries but doesn't carry enough gun? Not being critical Bee Dub, just wondering if that's a thing.

 

[Denny347]

Who carries but doesn't carry enough gun? Not being critical Bee Dub, just wondering if that's a thing.

People carry those P3AT and the like as their self-defense gun of choice all the time. Crappy sights and anemic rounds... I own a 642 .38 but I don't typically carry it off-duty (but it is FAR better choice than a P3AT). I would have to reload 3 times just to match what I load in a single magazine of my G19 that is my primary off-duty gun. I used to own a P3AT and sold it when I came to the realization that it was a poor choice for a gun fight.

 

[bobzilla]

1911 compact in .45. 7+1 plus a spare mag in the coat. If I need more than that I’m in the wrong place

 

[bwframe]

Who carries but doesn't carry enough gun? Not being critical Bee Dub, just wondering if that's a thing.

Lots of folks believe they are good with weak caliber, low capacity "belly guns." Some don't even carry a reload.

Where would that leave them in a gunfight with two street thugs that could actually shoot their standard capacity Glocks?

 

[actaeon277]

I go with "depends", because there are too many variable.


And because I don't want a lawyer going through my INGO posts second guessing me.

 

[singlesix]

I go with "depends", because there are too many variable.


And because I don't want a lawyer going through my INGO posts second guessing me.

Winner

 

[thunderchicken]

People carry those P3AT and the like as their self-defense gun of choice all the time. Crappy sights and anemic rounds... I own a 642 .38 but I don't typically carry it off-duty (but it is FAR better choice than a P3AT). I would have to reload 3 times just to match what I load in a single magazine of my G19 that is my primary off-duty gun. I used to own a P3AT and sold it when I came to the realization that it was a poor choice for a gun fight.

While I would agree that a P3AT or an LCP aren't an optimal choice to use in a gun fight, I do think the have their place. I can see it being used as a BUG or maybe in a situation of someone not being allowed to carry while at work, but can very easily conceal such a gun and fly under any radar so to speak. While its not the wisest choice for edc it may be better than looking for something to throw should a really bad situation arise. I have such a gun that may or may not ride in my lunch box...just in case

 

[churchmouse]

While I would agree that a P3AT or an LCP aren't an optimal choice to use in a gun fight, I do think the have their place. I can see it being used as a BUG or maybe in a situation of someone not being allowed to carry while at work, but can very easily conceal such a gun and fly under any radar so to speak. While its not the wisest choice for edc it may be better than looking for something to throw should a really bad situation arise. I have such a gun that may or may not ride in my lunch box...just in case

S&W 642 as a bug. Loaded for bear. Anywhere in that Subway it would be lethal.

 

[thunderchicken]

S&W 642 as a bug. Loaded for bear. Anywhere in that Subway it would be lethal.

I fully agree especially in the hands of someone who has regularly trained with it.

Only point I was making is that in a pinch the P3AT is better than throwing a plate at someone with a gun.
I have been known to slip one in the pocket of my gym pants and run out for a quick errand. While not the best choice it may beat trying to improvise under pressure

 

[Coach]

Criminals pulling a gun out and threatening people is my bright line. There is no safe distance, direction, or response time at that point. You are seconds between them threatening the cashier to killing you and yours. If you assume anything else you will not have time to respond. In a place as small as that Subway a person with a knife is a valid threat...

This is along the lines that I am thinking. But the if I have the family with me answer does not "seem" to be thinking along these lines. I have been pondering these situations and making some pre-loaded decisions. My biggest fear for a long time is a lack of situational awareness and that I not see the attack coming.

 

[wakproductions]

If by chance I am sitting there solo or with friends/family and this goes down yes my gun will be in my hand but at the low ready. Out of casual sight.

I guess it depends on how you carry, but I would imagine it being difficult to unholster and not be noticed. The thug doing the robbery is probably on some kind of adrenaline rush ready to turn towards anyone else in the room he thinks could stop him. All he gotta do is notice your hands out of view and swing the gun towards your direction. Then, you'd be at a disadvantage if he's already got that thing pointed in your face and is demanding you show your hands or hand over your own weapon or else.

 

[churchmouse]

I guess it depends on how you carry, but I would imagine it being difficult to unholster and not be noticed. The thug doing the robbery is probably on some kind of adrenaline rush ready to turn towards anyone else in the room he thinks could stop him. All he gotta do is notice your hands out of view and swing the gun towards your direction. Then, you'd be at a disadvantage if he's already got that thing pointed in your face and is demanding you show your hands or hand over your own weapon or else.

This is why we train. Drill. Coming from the low ready to on point with little to no thought as to anything else. Also what position are you in as to the counter dancer. If he has to make a drastic turn the day is yours. If the counter dancer starts to spin my way I am already moving. Training on 8" steel plates at 21 plus feet gives me the advantage. Or it should. SA. At the low "Ready".......point and shoot. If you are so inclined.

But again, we are merely surmising on the internet. So much could and may happen.

 

[Denny347]

This is along the lines that I am thinking. But the if I have the family with me answer does not "seem" to be thinking along these lines.

The decision becomes much more complex when you introduce family members (especially depending on ages) into the scenario. If possible, my first priority is to get them OUT. Back door, etc, they get out. If I cannot, then I need to get them out of fire. Last thing I want to do is engage in a gun battle where my kids/wife are bullet sponges. When I search a prisoner and find 1 gun, I keep searching because I assume there are 2. It's the +1 rule. Same with bad guys. You see 1, assume there are 2. You see 2, assume there are 3. Etc...etc. I might not have a choice but to engage the suspect. However, depending on circumstances, it might be my last choice. I've seen it. I couldn't live with myself if I drew fire that found my family instead. I know this isn't the BRAVADO thing to say. You know, I will engage the suspect REGARDLESS. It's not realistic.

 

[thunderchicken]

The decision becomes much more complex when you introduce family members (especially depending on ages) into the scenario. If possible, my first priority is to get them OUT. Back door, etc, they get out. If I cannot, then I need to get them out of fire. Last thing I want to do is engage in a gun battle where my kids/wife are bullet sponges. When I search a prisoner and find 1 gun, I keep searching because I assume there are 2. It's the +1 rule. Same with bad guys. You see 1, assume there are 2. You see 2, assume there are 3. Etc...etc. I might not have a choice but to engage the suspect. However, depending on circumstances, it might be my last choice. I've seen it. I couldn't live with myself if I drew fire that found my family instead. I know this isn't the BRAVADO thing to say. You know, I will engage the suspect REGARDLESS. It's not realistic.

In my mind this makes perfect sense. And I think to a certain degree it comes back to SA. Being mindful of where the exits are and where you sit. As an example, I almost never sit in a booth. I'm a big guy gor one and they restrict my movement. But they also make it difficult for my family to make an escape. I always try to sit where I can easily see the entrance, and position myself so my strong side isn't restricted as to allow for the easiest possible draw.

 

[Route 45]

1911 compact in .45. 7+1 plus a spare mag in the coat. If I need more than that I’m in the wrong place

If you need a gun at all, you're in the wrong place. Problem is, who knew that something as innocuous as a Subway in Fishers is the wrong place?

I'm like you, sometimes I carry 7+1 of .45 and a spare magazine in the pocket, though in a Shield instead of a 1911.

But more and more, I'm picking my M&P 2.0 Compact 9mm for the day's travels over the Shield. I know which one I'd rather have if pushed into an armed confrontation with more than one bad guy.

 

[bwframe]

As far as situational awareness is concerned, wasn't it mentioned above by LEO's and locals that they wouldn't be there in the first place?

I get made fun of for my urban paranoia when it comes to food, shopping or fuel stops in the city. If I'm not familiar with the establishment and there is a choice in the matter, I always err on the side of driving out of the city for my stops.

 

[churchmouse]

As far as situational awareness is concerned, wasn't it mentioned above by LEO's and locals that they wouldn't be there in the first place?

I get made fun of for my urban paranoia when it comes to food, shopping or fuel stops in the city. If I'm not familiar with the establishment and there is a choice in the matter, I always err on the side of driving out of the city for my stops.

Living in the heart of it I go where I have to when I have to. Sometimes even stopping at places where some of you folks would drive right by. Head is most always on a swivel.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

As far as situational awareness is concerned, wasn't it mentioned above by LEO's and locals that they wouldn't be there in the first place?

I get made fun of for my urban paranoia when it comes to food, shopping or fuel stops in the city. If I'm not familiar with the establishment and there is a choice in the matter, I always err on the side of driving out of the city for my stops.

Yep. I work that area on late shift and wouldn't eat there if given the choice.

 

[Route 45]

As far as situational awareness is concerned, wasn't it mentioned above by LEO's and locals that they wouldn't be there in the first place?

I get made fun of for my urban paranoia when it comes to food, shopping or fuel stops in the city. If I'm not familiar with the establishment and there is a choice in the matter, I always err on the side of driving out of the city for my stops.

I don't know...I don't think that there is any shortage of rural methbillies out there.

 

[Amishman44]

I don't think it's so much as what we 'would' do as much as it is what we 'should' do in that situation...
Is an armed robbery a correct or positive action...ABSOLUTELY NOT!
If it's just an armed robbery...wrong or not...should we just let that happen?
If you were a customer in the story during the time of the robbery...would you or would you not have been robbed at gun point as well?
At what point does one escalate the situation into self-defense mode?
You have two (2) bad guys...are they both armed?
Bad guys typically time their actions for when the least amount of anticipated resistance is present...
I believe this scenario presents more questions that answer...
But good questions...one's that make people think and maybe be a little more aware or prepared should a similar situation occur when they are alone, or with their family, and possibly come up with some responses, or possibly what responses are necessary and what the, if any 'triggers' might be necessary to escalate the situation into a self-defense mode...vs a simple compliance and allow the BG(s) to have their way and simply get a way?