The gun is ALWAYS loaded.

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  • ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
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    ...Because it's loaded, and that's dangerous...

    But that's exactly the problem I see with the mantra: the danger is linked so directly to only that one thing - the (real or imagined) loaded status.

    Not the pointing in an unsafe direction,

    Not the finger on the trigger,

    Not the target and backstop knowledge,

    ...you know, the actual rules that should be followed regardless.

    I'll never see how, on a rational basis, this is somehow superior to drilling those 3 rules regardless of assumed status.

    But whatever works for others.
     

    MTC

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    But that's exactly the problem I see with the mantra: the danger is linked so directly to only that one thing - the (real or imagined) loaded status.

    Not the pointing in an unsafe direction,

    Not the finger on the trigger,

    Not the target and backstop knowledge,

    ...you know, the actual rules that should be followed regardless.

    I'll never see how, on a rational basis, this is somehow superior to drilling those 3 rules regardless of assumed status.

    But whatever works for others.

    Though you weren't talking to me, hope you don't mind further clarification on this topic toward a constructive goal.
    Superior to? No. Linked only to that one thing? No. It is to put a stop to the habit of too many to handle firearms in a sloppy, careless or reckless manner, or to make excuses for doing so based on the assumption - true or not - that "it ain't loaded". Even among those for whom it is not necessary to have it drilled into their skulls, reinforcing Rule 1 becomes part of the subconscious and serves as the basis for the other three. An added benefit is it dispenses with the inane and often asked, "Is it loaded?" The very question itself indicates that one would behave or handle it differently based on the answer.

    (Note: On a few occasions, seen these four condensed into three or expanded into five, yet they all said the same thing. Don't like getting into which one is more or less important. Based on details in reports I've seen it is certain to me that nearly all the NDs definitely involved violations of Rule 2 and especially, ultimately Rule 3. If you start getting into which one is more or less important, however, it once again will give some the excuse they were looking for to discard or ignore other safety rules they considered unimportant. "But I didn't mean to shoot him" involves a Rule 4 violation as well, and "But I didn't know (or think) it was loaded" brings us back to Rule 1.)
     
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    ATM

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    ...reinforcing Rule 1 becomes part of the subconscious and serves as the basis for the other three.

    This is the premise I disagree with.

    Repeating the "all guns are always loaded" thought is a conscious effort which defies reality and won't ever actually convince or embed itself in the subconscious as a reality.

    Too much conflict.

    The subconscious knows that the gun is sometimes unloaded and, in fact, often believes this to be the case (even if it also acknowledges that it could be mistaken). This is in spite of the conscious rote repetition that "all guns are always loaded". Nonsense says the subconscious with a wink. ;)

    I don't like fighting losing battles, especially with myself.
    It's better for me to just embed the fact that safe handling rules (2-4) are to be observed for all firearms. When would I ever need to violate those rules? My subconscious shouldn't be waiting for an opportunity to ignore those rules whenever it suspects that the gun won't go bang.

    Is it loaded? What does it matter? I'm not going to violate those rules regardless. They never become less important based on the actual loaded or unloaded state I believe the gun to be in. That's what I want to be thinking on the true subconscious level.

    Practicing safe gun handling should not hang on the basis of ever convincing yourself of the same lie. There will come a time when you call BS on yourself and all that hung on the irrational belief will ever so briefly no longer apply. That's a dangerous spot to put yourself in.
     

    Mosinowner

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    That was the first rule dad taught me. He taught me also. Trust but verify. That means even if you just saw someone clear it. DO IT YOURSELF SO YOU WON'T GET SHOT!
     

    Smokepole

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    This is the premise I disagree with.

    Repeating the "all guns are always loaded" thought is a conscious effort which defies reality and won't ever actually convince or embed itself in the subconscious as a reality.

    Too much conflict.

    The subconscious knows that the gun is sometimes unloaded and, in fact, often believes this to be the case (even if it also acknowledges that it could be mistaken). This is in spite of the conscious rote repetition that "all guns are always loaded". Nonsense says the subconscious with a wink. ;)

    I don't like fighting losing battles, especially with myself.
    It's better for me to just embed the fact that safe handling rules (2-4) are to be observed for all firearms. When would I ever need to violate those rules? My subconscious shouldn't be waiting for an opportunity to ignore those rules whenever it suspects that the gun won't go bang.

    Is it loaded? What does it matter? I'm not going to violate those rules regardless. They never become less important based on the actual loaded or unloaded state I believe the gun to be in. That's what I want to be thinking on the true subconscious level.

    Practicing safe gun handling should not hang on the basis of ever convincing yourself of the same lie. There will come a time when you call BS on yourself and all that hung on the irrational belief will ever so briefly no longer apply. That's a dangerous spot to put yourself in.

    You overthink this. Or just like to argue. The all encompassing, overarching premise of "the gun is ALWAYS loaded" creates the mindset that reinforces the need to follow rules 1 thru 4 ALL OF THE TIME in order to create the HABIT of ALWAYS following rules 1 thru 4.

    It is the BASIS for the mindset. Nothing more, nothing less. Without it, the NEED for 1 thru 4 doesn't seem as strong.
     

    bwframe

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    I have actually run into this dilemma twice this week. Both times I did not initiate a gun conversation. Both times I was dealing with folks who were too smart for rules because they had been "raised with guns."

    One was a conversation involving a lady and her family where she invoked the "it's not loaded," statement. The other was with a career military man I observed casually sweep his son with a rifle that "wasn't loaded."
     

    PhilB

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    I've been taking my 12 and 14 year old nephews shooting and that is the first rule I taught them. A gun is always loaded even if you just unloaded it. I told them a lifetime is a long time to be sorry you accidently shot someone with an "unloaded" gun. We have a lot of fun but I try and make sure it is safe fun.
     

    MTC

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    This is the premise I disagree with.

    Repeating the "all guns are always loaded" thought is a conscious effort which defies reality and won't ever actually convince or embed itself in the subconscious as a reality.

    Too much conflict.

    The subconscious knows that the gun is sometimes unloaded and, in fact, often believes this to be the case (even if it also acknowledges that it could be mistaken). This is in spite of the conscious rote repetition that "all guns are always loaded". Nonsense says the subconscious with a wink. ;)

    I don't like fighting losing battles, especially with myself.
    It's better for me to just embed the fact that safe handling rules (2-4) are to be observed for all firearms. When would I ever need to violate those rules? My subconscious shouldn't be waiting for an opportunity to ignore those rules whenever it suspects that the gun won't go bang.

    Is it loaded? What does it matter? I'm not going to violate those rules regardless. They never become less important based on the actual loaded or unloaded state I believe the gun to be in. That's what I want to be thinking on the true subconscious level.

    Practicing safe gun handling should not hang on the basis of ever convincing yourself of the same lie. There will come a time when you call BS on yourself and all that hung on the irrational belief will ever so briefly no longer apply. That's a dangerous spot to put yourself in.
    Don't recall listing it as a premise. It may have been improper to express it in this way, as if to speak for someone else who changed the wording, yet that is part of how I understand it, and may have been better clarified as a possible benefit.

    As far as actual premises, if you disagree with a(ny) premise, then that is how it will be. If you are experiencing internal conflict, then let it not be so.
    There is none such here, as the subconscious knows the reason why, as it was acknowledged by the conscious. Certainly if you consider something to be a battle, or a losing one at that, well, then don't.

    Incidentally, I was taught the "as if" method first, and that was and still is understood - what was expected and what they were trying to impart - though from the first time there was a sense that the wording itself was not quite strong enough for a cardinal or universal rule to be absorbed en masse. I appreciate your and others' attention to detail of semantics, as it is a topic of interest. Also of interest is teaching methodology and operational mindset, among other things. The wording became not "All guns are ..." rather "The gun is ..." that is, the one you are dealing with right now. A distinction that might seem unimportant, yet interesting nonetheless.

    Since you are not being questioned (and certainly not your intelligence or integrity), your rhetorical questions will remain unaddressed, needing no answers. They would be the same from here anyway if they were to be. It is possible for two or more to arrive at the same point from different directions.

    I'm not going to violate those rules regardless.
    This is the most important point among several in which there is agreement.

    The last part comes off as ... well ... my attempt at a clarification was not meant as a personal insult.
    If it is a matter of considering Rule 1 to be useless or redundant it would be better expressed as such.

    -------
    ETA: Thanks Smokepole and BWFrame. Expressed it better than I can. Looks like I'd best stick with fewer words.
     
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    Bill of Rights

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    I have always been told that the reason for each of the Four Rules is that for a gun to be used to cause negligent injury to someone or something, the violation of only one rule is insufficient. At least two must be broken to do that.

    If the gun is always loaded, but never pointed in an unsafe direction, never with a finger in a position to pull the trigger, and always with a safe backstop, it will cause no injury.
    If you remove that rule (#1), a hunter climbing a tree (up or down) could experience a discharge of his firearm by a twig (that is, not his finger) catching his trigger. Where's his safe direction? Up could be pointed at himself, down could be at a buddy.

    A finger on the trigger isn't a problem as long as it's in a safe direction, right? Until your safe direction is no longer safe, by someone or something moving in front of your target.

    Know your target and your backstop... Good thinking. These won't affect your firearm's ability to discharge, but they do address the possibility of unexpected/unwanted "targets" that could be hit by a ND.

    I like the whole "belt and suspenders" idea. I told someone in a PM the other day, when I was asked about my preference for external safeties on a handgun, the same thing. *I* am the safety, but I neither rely totally on myself nor on the mechanical safety on my gun. Should it fail, my actions are still going to be safe. Should I slip in my obsessive awareness of my muzzle direction for a moment, I want the mechanical backup.
    The same logic applies: If I have a gun on me that, fired, could have fatal effect, I want as many things between "safe" and ND as I can put there, without compromising my ability to use it as it was intended to be used. The only time I want to look down a gun barrel is when I have the gun disassembled. I won't even do it with a chamber flag in place, and I'm leery of doing it even with the gun apart... It just feels wrong to me. So far, that has stood me in good stead. Every day I break my personal record of consecutive days alive and unshot. ;)

    For those who don't like Rule #1, that's your choice. Some people don't like external safeties... that also is your choice, if you don't. I hope and pray that your choices do not ever come back and bite you by causing injury to anyone, including yourselves.

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    Titanium_Frost

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    I have always been told that the reason for each of the Four Rules is that for a gun to be used to cause negligent injury to someone or something, the violation of only one rule is insufficient. At least two must be broken to do that.

    If the gun is always loaded, but never pointed in an unsafe direction, never with a finger in a position to pull the trigger, and always with a safe backstop, it will cause no injury.
    If you remove that rule (#1), a hunter climbing a tree (up or down) could experience a discharge of his firearm by a twig (that is, not his finger) catching his trigger. Where's his safe direction? Up could be pointed at himself, down could be at a buddy.

    A finger on the trigger isn't a problem as long as it's in a safe direction, right? Until your safe direction is no longer safe, by someone or something moving in front of your target.

    Know your target and your backstop... Good thinking. These won't affect your firearm's ability to discharge, but they do address the possibility of unexpected/unwanted "targets" that could be hit by a ND.

    I like the whole "belt and suspenders" idea. I told someone in a PM the other day, when I was asked about my preference for external safeties on a handgun, the same thing. *I* am the safety, but I neither rely totally on myself nor on the mechanical safety on my gun. Should it fail, my actions are still going to be safe. Should I slip in my obsessive awareness of my muzzle direction for a moment, I want the mechanical backup.
    The same logic applies: If I have a gun on me that, fired, could have fatal effect, I want as many things between "safe" and ND as I can put there, without compromising my ability to use it as it was intended to be used. The only time I want to look down a gun barrel is when I have the gun disassembled. I won't even do it with a chamber flag in place, and I'm leery of doing it even with the gun apart... It just feels wrong to me. So far, that has stood me in good stead. Every day I break my personal record of consecutive days alive and unshot. ;)

    For those who don't like Rule #1, that's your choice. Some people don't like external safeties... that also is your choice, if you don't. I hope and pray that your choices do not ever come back and bite you by causing injury to anyone, including yourselves.

    Blessings,
    Bill

    That is a great quote. Good post as always Bill! My primary handguns are all cocked and locked so I am with you there. I for one like the totality of the four rules approach and I think its splitting hairs to say the gun is always loaded versus treat the gun as always loaded.

    In the end I think that rule #1 is just to enforce the fact that you should respect the other three and keep it in your mind that the other rules ALWAYS apply as long as the gun is capable of being loaded and fired.
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    In the end I think that rule #1 is just to enforce the fact that you should respect the other three and keep it in your mind that the other rules ALWAYS apply as long as the gun is capable of being loaded and fired.

    It is the inverse. Rule #1 was the only rule at API at one time. It was deemed insufficient by Jeff Cooper as different people had different interpretations of what was "safe" with a loaded gun. Thus the Four Rules were created.

    Modifying the Four Rules brings one right into the same trap of late '70s API. The reason the Four Rules are recited as a mantra is that the mantra will save your life or others when you are in a fight, exhausted, inter alia.
     

    Titanium_Frost

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    It is the inverse. Rule #1 was the only rule at API at one time. It was deemed insufficient by Jeff Cooper as different people had different interpretations of what was "safe" with a loaded gun. Thus the Four Rules were created.

    Modifying the Four Rules brings one right into the same trap of late '70s API. The reason the Four Rules are recited as a mantra is that the mantra will save your life or others when you are in a fight, exhausted, inter alia.

    I just learned the history of the four rules from this thread, I was born in 1985 so there were ALWAYS four rules for me, and that is how I look at it. It may not be the original intent but it has kept me safe with firearms.
     

    Double T

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    I had this discussion with my wife last night...she's like...what if I just unloaded it? I said consider it still loaded or you could get careless...she asked how?

    We then watched gun fails on YouTube and then a couple videos from in here...I think we r good for now
     

    the1kidd03

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    people should always assume a weapon is loaded...OF COURSE....but what I find funny is the further lack of trigger discipline.....whether it's loaded or not....their finger should not even TOUCH the trigger until they are ready to fire.....if they followed either of these rules idiotic shootings like that wouldn't happen
     

    ATM

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    Don't recall listing it as a premise.

    I only called it that because it seemed to fit the definition.
    I'm also fine with calling it something else, like a notion or theory.

    It is possible for two or more to arrive at the same point from different directions.

    Absolutely. I believe that we all want everyone to arrive at the same destination - safe gun handling .

    The last part comes off as ... well ... my attempt at a clarification was not meant as a personal insult.

    I did not take it as such and did not mean to counter with any implied insult.
    Heck, you and I agree on so many things, this was a rather rare opportunity to just argue a bit. :):

    If it is a matter of considering Rule 1 to be useless or redundant it would be better expressed as such.

    Not exactly, but fairly close. Generally, illogical seems useless to me, but Rule #1 does help many (who I can only imagine must reconcile the illogical notion as a beneficial reminder).

    It is redundant. Rules 2, 3 and 4 are action items. Rule 1, at most, is simply a general thought to lend extra significance to these 3 action items.
    We could add another rule in front of it which reads: SERIOUSLY, PAY ATTENTION TO THIS NEXT ONE - YOU MIGHT BE WRONG.

    But then we'd have 5 rules and 2 of them would just be "enhancers" to focus on the 3 that matter. That's the opposite of keeping it simple.

    My opinion is that following the 3 action rules whether it's loaded or not is dead simple. Well, dead might actually give the wrong impression of how simple it is. :laugh:

    Convincing people that that's how firearms are to be handled should not require them assuming, convincing themselves or even considering the loaded status as they could always be mistaken on that point in reality.

    But it's all good. Same destination. :ingo:
     
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