the k9 truth

[Kirk Freeman]

Ok, Kirk, so you're saying that Chompy hits, but I find nothing, that's a strike on the dog.

Correct.

Now, you come over to my house

Not talking about houses, motor vehicles but my proposal can be expanded to houses especially as the police are using dogs to sniff down apartment buildings and the like.

If a dog says there is something there and an officer doesn't find it, is it the dog's fault? No.

The issue is not fault, but reliability. The courts are allowing Chompy to testify because of the reliability of the dog.

Let's put that to the test! *Spartan king accent*

That's why everyone is saying the only results can come from true controlled tests.

Great! Disqualify all dogs immediately as you just admitted we can't get reliable field results.

Traffic stops do not transpire in true controlled tests yet Chompy's testimony is permitted. Let's keep track of the dogs field results and see how accurate the dogs really now. Now, they are perfect, it is my contention that they are not. The OP proves my point but I want some numbers.

 

[jeremy]

Traffic stops do not transpire in true controlled tests yet Chompy's testimony is permitted. Let's keep track of the dogs field results and see how accurate the dogs really now. Now, they are perfect, it is my contention that they are not. The OP proves my point but I want some numbers.

I think we are on the same sheet of Music here...

 

[serpicostraight]

i got stopped once in nashville and they brought the dog out they said it was sop. the dog did alert but he went nuts and started eating the evidence. the handler tried to get it away from him but it was too late he had already devoured most of my tuna fish sammich.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Transporting a maritime asset over state lines again are we?

 

[rw496]

This is really a question that I don't know the answer to....

Doesn't the LEO have to have a reason for the dog to be brought out anyways? It's not like every officer has a Chompy riding shotgun.

Sort of. They can't detain you any longer than is necessary to complete the traffic stop without at least reasonable suspicion.

 

[rw496]

The false positive is the heart of the issue. You can not reliably deem an indication a false positive in the field; there are too many unknowns. Also, in the field, how would you know if a dog failed to indicate on dope..if he don't indicate you ain't searchin' that car and you will never know. Maybe a questionnaire sent to dope runners afterward...Did you have dope in the car? If so, how much?

 

[eldirector]

The false positive is the heart of the issue. You can not reliably deem an indication a false positive in the field; there are too many unknowns. Also, in the field, how would you know if a dog failed to indicate on dope..if he don't indicate you ain't searchin' that car and you will never know. Maybe a questionnaire sent to dope runners afterward...Did you have dope in the car? If so, how much?

That would be a false negative. Yes, those are harder to track. The LEO would need something other than the non-alerting dog to give PC, and then find dope in the car.

False positive is a dog alerting, the LEO conducting a search now that he has PC, and then finding nothing.

 

[Bunnykid68]

How many times is a dog brought out to a car and does not hit on the car? Regardless of whether there is anything found. I bet they hit on the car damn near every single time just so the officer has a reason to search.

 

[rw496]

Trust me I know just how hard it is to find/or not, a false positive. Nothing like crawling over, under, around through a Semi in 100+ temps in full battle rattle just to go nope nothing here. Better yet to find out that 3 weeks before he hauled explosives and fertilizer for a Mine somewhere...

I'm glad you know how it feels. I would rather get poked in the eye than search a semi in the summer. Anyway, that's a good example. Should that be counted against the dog so that at some point a good defense attorney will shred his credibility. I guess that you have a good deal of money and time invested in your dog to have him deemed worthless in the eyes of the court when he is really good at his job

 

[jeremy]

I'm glad you know how it feels. I would rather get poked in the eye than search a semi in the summer. Anyway, that's a good example. Should that be counted against the dog so that at some point a good defense attorney will shred his credibility. I guess that you have a good deal of money and time invested in your dog to have him deemed worthless in the eyes of the court when he is really good at his job

Yes it should be counted against both the Dog and the Handler, but with the reasons for the False Positive hit to include environmental factors...

 

[serpicostraight]

How many times is a dog brought out to a car and does not hit on the car? Regardless of whether there is anything found. I bet they hit on the car damn near every single time just so the officer has a reason to search.

according to this article they are trained to do that very thing. the handler gives them a signal they alert. the cop gets to toss the car and the dog gets a scooby snack. everybody is happy except the honest citizen who got dragged into this episode of keystone kops.

 

[rw496]

That would be a false negative. Yes, those are harder to track. The LEO would need something other than the non-alerting dog to give PC, and then find dope in the car.

False positive is a dog alerting, the LEO conducting a search now that he has PC, and then finding nothing.

I got 'em straight. The first issue, the false positive, was addressed quickly..saying "nothing" found is the point. There is something..odor.. residue, etc. The second point was the false negative..It didn't read smoothly becacuse I am driving, thinking out loud and have had way too much coffee today.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

False positive: a test result that is incorrect because the test indicated a condition or finding that does exist.

A false positive is NOT a FALSE NEGATIVE which you keep brandishing about.

If Chompy indicates and none of the four are found, then that is a false positive and the po-po write it down, or type it down.

If Chompy does not indicate, then the po-po do something else but we are not keeping batting averages for that.

 

[IndyDave1776]

It seems to me that even if the dog is 100% correct (which I tend to doubt) and there are no dishonest handlers who would train the dog to indicate on cue (which I really doubt), there are enough bits of residual material in circulation that the dog indicating drugs is on par with it indicating sunlight as probable cause.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

There is something..odor.. residue, etc.

No, we ain't playing the Ghost Molecule Game no mo'.

Wwweeelll, there could be an odor. Right, I got it, but I say we not play that what if game that the cops like to play.

"We need a tank because what if our city is attacked by Godzilla and he knows Wing Chun and King Kong is on vacation."

No, we write stuff down and see what the numbers tell us.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

there are enough bits of residual material in circulation that the dog indicating drugs is on par with it indicating sunlight as probable cause.

Chompy hit on money from Janet Reno's purse.

 

[rw496]

False positive: a test result that is incorrect because the test indicated a condition or finding that does exist.

A false positive is NOT a FALSE NEGATIVE which you keep brandishing about.

If Chompy indicates and none of the four are found, then that is a false positive and the po-po write it down, or type it down.

If Chompy does not indicate, then the po-po do something else but we are not keeping batting averages for that.

Dog hits.."nothing" found..false positive.
Dog does not hit..there was dope...false negative...
It is the "nothing" we are in disagreement about. It is possible that something either not visible or not found existed. I'm not brandishing..I never brandish...well not often.

 

[Mr. Habib]

It appears that the handlers can influence the dogs to alert. Not that some police officers would actually lie or make up PC in order to search your car.
http://blog.sfgate.com/pets/2011/02/02/handlers-beliefs-influence-drug-sniffing-dogs-performance/
Tribune analysis: Drug-sniffing dogs in traffic stops often wrong - Page 2 - Chicago Tribune

 

[rw496]

No, we ain't playing the Ghost Molecule Game no mo'.

Wwweeelll, there could be an odor. Right, I got it, but I say we not play that what if game that the cops like to play.

"We need a tank because what if our city is attacked by Godzilla and he knows Wing Chun and King Kong is on vacation."

No, we write stuff down and see what the numbers tell us.

I like the word games you defense attorneys play with things like "Ghost molecules," inferring that they do not exist. Radiation is like a ghost molecule, but I doubt you hang out in the x-ray room.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Brandishing is illegal in Texas, thus it is illegal here, right? Rhino, you owe me ammo.

It is possible that something either not visible or not found existed.

Possible? I'm not arguing how many meth heads can dance on the head of a pin. It is possible that a hot, leggy blonde will gift me a Blaser rifle with an S&B optic and a 30 day hunt in Botswana. Possible, but unlikely.

The court looks at the reliability of the doggies. This is why we have dog sniffs. I have to hear all about the receptors in their nose time after time.

If nothing is found, then the dog infallibility can be disputed. Right now Chompy is leading off with 1.000 batting average and the dogs are infallible.