The Navy's Newest White Elephant.

[Hohn]

Specification Creep!

Design Creep!

Technology Creep!

Obsolescence of parts!!!

Ahh....that is my world...and it is a mess. Oh, to be part of a "skunkworks" project just once in my career!

I got the chance to do a Skunkworks project for my present employer in a previous role.

It's definitely cool in its own way.....until the "flexibility' and lack of discipline turns things into a minor disaster.

 

[IndyDave1776]

An interesting read...

Battleship Comparison

Somehow, the author accidentally came to the correct final conclusion, but his work doesn't justify his answer.

Most outstanding error, the suckage of the Yamato's underwater protection was massive, particularly where the primary armor belt bolted to the lower 8 inch armor belt below the water line. There is a reason why the Musashi and Shinano were sunk exclusively by torpedo fire and the Yamato was sunk by a combination of bombs and aerial torpedoes. Unfortunately, insufficient data exists on the sinking of the Yamato for detailed analysis. Major fail in the article. By contrast, the author assigns a grossly low score to the Bismarck which performed well above the assigned score. Hit ANY ship in the rudder with a torpedo and it is going to have problems!

Another glaring error is in the main guns. The Italian 15 inch guns were superior in terms of the actual ordnance to all other 15 inch and smaller guns by virtue of firing both the heaviest shell and firing at the highest velocity. It was also more effective both on paper and as tested than the 16 inch Mark VI gun on the South Dakota. I would also point out that in addition to the 9 15 inch guns on the Italian battleship being more destructive individually AND collectively than the 10 14 inch guns on the King George V, the KG V's two quad turrets had a tendency to fail very frequently with the twin 14 inch being the only truly reliable turret and in actual combat, only 5 or 6 guns actually firing in each salvo in which the ship was positioned in a way that should have allowed all 10 to be fired if they were working.

Fire control. Author shows huge prejudice. The Iowas were superior to everything else at the time, but in actual combat, the Yamato shot a hell of a lot better than a 5 at Sprague's force, and the Bismarck rates a hell of a lot better than a 5 as well.

Obliviousness to the Yamato's incredible 3.9 inch AA guns is also telling.

Overall, my conclusion is that this author needs remedial education, especially given that I can identify this many errors from memory when he presumably had all the time and resources he wanted to use in preparing his web page.

The assessment of armor protection indicates religious convictions rather than actual tests or an understanding of the theories behind the protection schemes. Either that, or he just doesn't like Germans.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I remember reading The Caine Mutiny in High School. I remember how Queeg earned the nickname "Old Yellowstain".

Never read it. I am guessing he pissed his pants?

 

[actaeon277]

Never read it. I am guessing he pissed his pants?

Was told to escort landing craft in close, into shallow water.
Instead, dropped yellow dye and left.

 

[actaeon277]

As an electric guitarist, I'd like to remind you there's nothing wrong with a vacuum tube!

There sure is when you're on a warship.

 

[Hohn]

Somehow, the author accidentally came to the correct final conclusion, but his work doesn't justify his answer.

Most outstanding error, the suckage of the Yamato's underwater protection was massive, particularly where the primary armor belt bolted to the lower 8 inch armor belt below the water line. There is a reason why the Musashi and Shinano were sunk exclusively by torpedo fire and the Yamato was sunk by a combination of bombs and aerial torpedoes. Unfortunately, insufficient data exists on the sinking of the Yamato for detailed analysis. Major fail in the article. By contrast, the author assigns a grossly low score to the Bismarck which performed well above the assigned score. Hit ANY ship in the rudder with a torpedo and it is going to have problems!

Another glaring error is in the main guns. The Italian 15 inch guns were superior in terms of the actual ordnance to all other 15 inch and smaller guns by virtue of firing both the heaviest shell and firing at the highest velocity. It was also more effective both on paper and as tested than the 16 inch Mark VI gun on the South Dakota. I would also point out that in addition to the 9 15 inch guns on the Italian battleship being more destructive individually AND collectively than the 10 14 inch guns on the King George V, the KG V's two quad turrets had a tendency to fail very frequently with the twin 14 inch being the only truly reliable turret and in actual combat, only 5 or 6 guns actually firing in each salvo in which the ship was positioned in a way that should have allowed all 10 to be fired if they were working.

Fire control. Author shows huge prejudice. The Iowas were superior to everything else at the time, but in actual combat, the Yamato shot a hell of a lot better than a 5 at Sprague's force, and the Bismarck rates a hell of a lot better than a 5 as well.

Obliviousness to the Yamato's incredible 3.9 inch AA guns is also telling.

Overall, my conclusion is that this author needs remedial education, especially given that I can identify this many errors from memory when he presumably had all the time and resources he wanted to use in preparing his web page.

The assessment of armor protection indicates religious convictions rather than actual tests or an understanding of the theories behind the protection schemes. Either that, or he just doesn't like Germans.

Awesome post. One of my favorite childhood reads was a book about the hunt for the Bismarck. (I believe it was Ark Royal and Rodney that did her in?)

 

[Indy-Mike]

Looks like it helped save one life today.

Navy's new Zumwalt destroyer rescues ailing fishing boat captain off Portland - The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram

The Navy’s new stealth destroyer endured a real life-and-death test Saturday when crew members aboard the future USS Zumwalt helped rescue a Maine fisherman suffering a medical emergency at sea.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Awesome post. One of my favorite childhood reads was a book about the hunt for the Bismarck. (I believe it was Ark Royal and Rodney that did her in?)

Thanks!

The demise of the Bismarck was the cumulative effort of several British units. The first installment came in the battle with the Hood and Prince of Wales. The Hood's lack of armor contributed greatly to its destruction as did the angle of attack in which the two British ships presented their bows to the German's sides. Admiral Holland made a critical error in failing to notice that the Prinz Eugen was in the lead resulting in several missed salvoes before the error was realized, giving the Germans time to destroy the Hood with relatively little damage. What was critical is that Captain Leach figured out the error a bit sooner and shifted fire to the Bismarck, landing 3 hits. One shut down an auxiliary generator, one put a hole above the waterline but below the bow wave when moving at higher speeds, and one damaged the aircraft catapult beyond repair at sea. The critical results were taking on water in the bow which both contaminated fuel and made the ship more difficult to manage, and denying the use of aerial surveillance at a time when the Germans really needed it. On the other hand, Captain Leach may well have been able to contribute more to the effort had the Prince of Wales not come down with a bad case of KG V quad turret syndrome, putting him down to 2 functioning barrels.

The second major installment was when the Ark Royal's Fairey Swordfish landed a torpedo hit on the rudders, making the ship pretty well unmanageable and insistent upon going the very direction the Germans did not want to go--right toward the British and away from occupied France where repairs could be made. Interestingly enough, the Swordfish's obsolescence contributed to its success as the German anti-aircraft guns were calibrated toward faster modern aircraft and not antiques virtually hanging still in the air. I should also note that the Prinz Eugen was ordered to proceed separately before this attack.

In the final battle, the King George V and Rodney came in fresh attacking the Bismarck which was not only damaged but also had a crew suffering from poor rest after spending the entire night being harassed by gun and torpedo fire from British destroyers. All said and done, both ships contributed to the final victory with the cruiser Belfast firing torpedoes into the lifeless hulk of the Bismarck after actual fighting had stopped. The two ranking German survivors insisted that their scuttling charges, not the torpedoes, sunk the ship. Doctor Ballard's investigation of the wreck seems to support this assertion as the armor belt, hit by the torpedoes as the ship was riding very low in the water and likely would have succumbed to bodily sinkage of its own accord sooner or later, was displaced inward but not breached. The scuttling charges created asymmetrical flooding resulting in the ship capsizing, the stern breaking off (a design flaw in German heavy units of the time, later corrected during refits of the Tirpitz and the surviving heavy cruisers), and the turrets being dumped out of the ship on the way down, with the ship hitting the bottom at an estimated 75 knots (about 86 land miles per hour).

An interesting addition is that the Bismarck was lost and rediscovered as a result of lengthy radio messages to Berlin made carelessly as the clinically depressed Admiral Lutjens had already given up in his mind and did not consider the possibility that the British had lost track of him. Had he kept his mouth shut, been willing to jettison the bow anchors and chains to offset the flooding holding the ship down by the bow, and made a better effort to find volunteers or 'volunteers' to cut off the damaged rudder (the other rudder was just fine), he may well have succeeded at reaching France and saving the precious battleship to fight another day.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Looks like it helped save one life today.

Navy's new Zumwalt destroyer rescues ailing fishing boat captain off Portland - The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram

The Navy’s new stealth destroyer endured a real life-and-death test Saturday when crew members aboard the future USS Zumwalt helped rescue a Maine fisherman suffering a medical emergency at sea.

Lovely. We have a multi-billion dollar platform which can...*drumroll*...replace a Coast Guard Cutter!

 

[actaeon277]

U.S. Navy's Lethal New Stealth Destroyer Is No 'Battleship' | The National Interest


Thought this had some good insight.

 

[actaeon277]

Yahoo!

A mine detector
That doesn't detect mines.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Yahoo!

A mine detector
That doesn't detect mines.

Despite the inherent controversy of continued failure (and harsh criticism from lawmakers), Lockheed Martin says it’s still confident in its system and trusts its effectiveness.

Never ask the salesman if it's a good deal!

 

[Birds Away]

I guess we stopped posting in this thread too soon:

New $360 million Navy ship breaks down - CNNPolitics.com

 

[IndyDave1776]

Propulsion failure. I guess that's what they are calling being a piece of [junk] these days.

 

[actaeon277]

Propulsion failure. I guess that's what they are calling being a piece of [junk] these days.

Must be designing things pretty cheaply now a days.
Back in the day, ships had to be designed to take damage, and had redundancy on everything.
So to lose propulsion, without bomb/missile/torpedo explosion.. I can't even imagine.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Must be designing things pretty cheaply now a days.
Back in the day, ships had to be designed to take damage, and had redundancy on everything.
So to lose propulsion, without bomb/missile/torpedo explosion.. I can't even imagine.

What I can imagine is that someone is making a sh*tload of money selling pieces of floating scrap that aren't worth much more than they would scrap out for, and a or more politicians are raking in an unreported return off the deal as well.

 

[actaeon277]

What I can imagine is that someone is making a sh*tload of money selling pieces of floating scrap that aren't worth much more than they would scrap out for, and a or more politicians are raking in an unreported return off the deal as well.

And, ship designers (civilian and naval) try to get away with lowering safety margins and redundancy to make the ship lighter and cheaper.
Forgetting that it's a warship, and not a rowboat.

 

[actaeon277]

Littered with problems... lets add cracking hulls.
Because failing main engines weren't enough.

The Navy's Independence Class Littoral Combat Ships Are Cracking

Just when you thought things couldn't get worse for the Littoral Combat Ship program, the Independence class is experiencing cracking.

www.thedrive.com

 

[churchmouse]

There are two Emeritus banners in this thread.
Both were my friends.

Sadness

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

There are two Emeritus banners in this thread.
Both were my friends.

Sadness

Two members I always wanted to meet but never got the chance to.