The Open Carry Shotgun Thread

[Steelman]

How does it meet the definition of disorderly conduct?

Disorderly conduct is one of the most common offenses in the United States, and is often the result of unreasonable police officers giving someone a hard time until they lose their cool.


Disorderly conduct generally includes most kinds of unruly or disturbing behaviors, which acts to provoke a disturbance.


Disorderly conduct laws exist in every state, and are often used as a “catch-all” charge for minor offenses. It is important to note that disorderly conduct is a prosecutable offense, which can lead to fines, jail time, and other punishments upon conviction.

Stolen from the first Indiana lawyer I could google.

 

[Episcopus]

Stolen from the first Indiana lawyer I could google.

That's all well and good, but you have the IC at your disposal. Why don't you look up disorderly conduct, read how it is defined, and then tell me how carrying a gun meets that definition.

 

[NateIU10]

IC 35-45-1-3
Disorderly conduct
Sec. 3. (a) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally:
(1) engages in fighting or in tumultuous conduct;
(2) makes unreasonable noise and continues to do so after being asked to stop; or
(3) disrupts a lawful assembly of persons;
commits disorderly conduct, a Class B misdemeanor.
(b) The offense described in subsection (a) is a Class D felony if it:
(1) adversely affects airport security; and
(2) is committed in an airport (as defined in IC 8-21-1-1) or on the premises of an airport, including in a parking area, a maintenance bay, or an aircraft hangar.
(c) The offense described in subsection (a) is a Class D felony if it:
(1) is committed within five hundred (500) feet of:
(A) the location where a burial is being performed;
(B) a funeral procession, if the person described in subsection (a) knows that the funeral procession is taking place; or
(C) a building in which:
(i) a funeral or memorial service; or
(ii) the viewing of a deceased person;
is being conducted; and
(2) adversely affects the funeral, burial, viewing, funeral procession, or memorial service.

Dont know if you can see this though

 

[hoosiertriangle]

As I've been reading, I've been trying to figure out the proper response. I think it appears to boil down to what Steelman wants, and that appears to be a guarantee from the authority that he will not be harassed, charged, etc. if he carries a loaded long gun in his vehicle.

Unfortunately, all the authorities he states he wants to look to still aren't good enough to prevent this. Only two bodies state what the law of Indiana is and the repercussions of that law. The legislature through passed Indiana statutes and the Indiana Supreme Court interpreting those statutes. In some instances an opinion by the Attorney General for State giving an opinion on a statute can be used as a defense to a charge.

Law Enforcement Officers (LEO's), Prosecutors, and Attorneys cannot give you a guarantee you will not be harassed or something is ok to do. LEO only know what their training on what a criminal offense is. Whether somebody has actually broken the law is up to the prosecutor. The prosecutor only knows what the statutes say and the courts have interpreted the statutes to say and THEIR opinion. Finally your own personal lawyer or any lawyer on this forum can only give you an OPINION, or his/her personal belief on what would happen if you did a certain action based on the statutes, case law, and common sense. It won't gurantee you that you won't experience negative consequences for doing something that is legal.

Bottom line is that there is no Indiana statute barring carry of a long gun in a vehicle that is loaded if you can legally own the firearm. Without any statute barring an action as being criminal, there can be no criminal consequence for doring the activity. What can still happen is you may get harassed, arrested, charged, and even convicted for doing something that is legal. It happens all the time, ask the thousands of people appealing their criminal convictions.

At the end of the day, people can give you their thoughts and rationale as to what could/would/should happen but you have to determine if the benefits outweigh the risk and confident enough in the legal system that it will work properly.

I am confident enough in the legal system and the laws as written of this state that if I had a need to carry a loaded shotgun in the front seat of my car with me, I would. That being said, as of today, I feel my loaded 9mm in the glove box to be sufficient should I be without my trusty .45 while driving.

Finally I am NOT a lawyer, but I am a law student here in Indiana. Please note that nothing said above should be considered legal advice.

Good luck and stay safe!

 

[SilentWarrior1]

It would be nice to have some in LE chime in with a contact who could verify the PD's stance on loaded long guns in vehicle/on person. LT or above.
quote]

Sadly, asking for this is VERY subject to personal interpretation and opinion. The CLEO's opinion may not be interpreted by the lower ranking official as the CLEO would percieve themselves.

Also, the CLEO of one municipality may not share the same views of another.

Asking for a "View" or "Stance" is dangerous. Your best bet is to get Adept legal advice from a licensed professional and know the Law before seeking opinions from sometimes half-educated law enforcement officers.

 

[Steelman]

That's all well and good, but you have the IC at your disposal. Why don't you look up disorderly conduct, read how it is defined, and then tell me how carrying a gun meets that definition.

A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally:
(1) engages in fighting or in tumultuous conduct;
(2) makes unreasonable noise and continues to do so after being asked to stop; or
(3) disrupts a lawful assembly of persons;
commits disorderly conduct. . . [1]

A prosecutor could argue that some one with a loaded rifle disrupts the lawful assembly of people in Castleton Square Mall. Being unsure of your intent with a loaded rifle, shopper's would flee the mall and miss out on 10% off at Old Navy.


Not the end of the world, but I'd bet you'd get a ride in a Crown Vic.

 

[Episcopus]

What can still happen is you may get harassed, arrested, charged, and even convicted for doing something that is legal. It happens all the time, ask the thousands of people appealing their criminal convictions.

Good post. I just want to comment on the section quoted above. Someone may be harassed, or even arrested for openly carrying a long gun, but they will never be convicted because there is no crime to be convicted of. In Indiana there is no "Carrying a Rifle" or "Carrying a Shotgun" charge, or anything similar.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

Take your AR-15, load a 30rd mag, sling it across your shoulder and carry it into Castleton Square Mall. I'll come to bail you out and we'll review the papework. Disorderly conduct at least.

Not going back into legalities or anything.... but why on God's green earth amongst his furry little woodland creatures would you get the bright idea of doing such a thing is a GOOD idea?

Now, I'd be the first to tell you that I'd do something like this for shits and giggles... but to be honest, It's just not something that common sense can allow. You're BEGGING for attention, and positive attention doesn't immediately come to mind.

Just because you legally can, doesn't mean you should.

And if someone thought it would be a good idea to disarm you? How fast do you think you could unsling said rifle/shotgun?

Common sense should outrule common law. In some cases it does, some it doesn't. Best thing you can do is know the law, and then ask yourself, "Is it really worth the trouble?"

 

[Steelman]

Not going back into legalities or anything.... but why on God's green earth amongst his furry little woodland creatures would you get the bright idea of doing such a thing is a GOOD idea?

Now, I'd be the first to tell you that I'd do something like this for shits and giggles... but to be honest, It's just not something that common sense can allow. You're BEGGING for attention, and positive attention doesn't immediately come to mind.

Just because you legally can, doesn't mean you should.

And if someone thought it would be a good idea to disarm you? How fast do you think you could unsling said rifle/shotgun?

Common sense should outrule common law. In some cases it does, some it doesn't. Best thing you can do is know the law, and then ask yourself, "Is it really worth the trouble?"

Of course I'm being facetious with this scenario.


A lot of folks think we need "common sense" legislation to outlaw certain firearms.

Still sticking to your guns??? *pun intended*

 

[SilentWarrior1]

It's not a question of whether it should be outlawed or not. I'd be the first to tell you that it shouldn't be. America has been de-sensitized to what freedom is... and more and more Americans are taking the path of the sheep.

Getting back to Slinging rifles and shotguns on our backs is going to take more time than what it did the first time. Unfortunately, some people won't be swayed, and they cause the headache for the lot of us law abiding citizens who are morally and intellectually capable to accept such a responsibility.

 

[Episcopus]

A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally:
(1) engages in fighting or in tumultuous conduct;
(2) makes unreasonable noise and continues to do so after being asked to stop; or
(3) disrupts a lawful assembly of persons;
commits disorderly conduct. . . [1]

A prosecutor could argue that some one with a loaded rifle disrupts the lawful assembly of people in Castleton Square Mall. Being unsure of your intent with a loaded rifle, shopper's would flee the mall and miss out on 10% off at Old Navy.


Not the end of the world, but I'd bet you'd get a ride in a Crown Vic.

You're right, the argument could be made. Prosecutors can argue anything they want. I think there would have to be some other sort of disruptive conduct, other than passively existing. I would think you would have to take some sort of positive action, but who knows. However, a conviction can't stand where you are engaging in Constitutionally protected actions. Article 1, section 32 of the Indiana Consitution says that you have the right to bear arms. Though the right is not absolute, there are no restrictions on long guns anywhere in the law. If you are doing nothing more than carrying a long gun, you will not be convicted of anything. You may get arrested. It happens. If it happened to you, I would suggest speaking to a lawyer about suing the police for civil rights violations.

 

[Steelman]

You're right, the argument could be made. Prosecutors can argue anything they want. I think there would have to be some other sort of disruptive conduct, other than passively existing. I would think you would have to take some sort of positive action, but who knows. However, a conviction can't stand where you are engaging in Constitutionally protected actions. Article 1, section 32 of the Indiana Consitution says that you have the right to bear arms. Though the right is not absolute, there are no restrictions on long guns anywhere in the law. If you are doing nothing more than carrying a long gun, you will not be convicted of anything. You may get arrested. It happens. If it happened to you, I would suggest speaking to a lawyer about suing the police for civil rights violations.

Heller would provide an excellent platform, but would not be an immediate dismissal.

 

[Scutter01]

If it happened to you, I would suggest speaking to a lawyer about suing the police for civil rights violations.

And don't forget to sponsor the board when you get paid!

 

[Episcopus]

I forgot to add that your argument that people might freak out and run for cover, thus opening you up to disorderly conduct charges is the same argument made by some against open carry of handguns. It hasn't happened with handguns, and when calls are made to the police about a man with a gun, they see that there is no threat and allow everyone to go on their way. Why would a long gun be any different. At least with a handgun, you could be acting illegally, if you didn't have a permit.

And Heller really wouldn't have any bearing on our State because we already have no restrictions, other than those which will undoubtedly be deemed "Reasonable" in future cases (license requirement). The term is explicitly in our own State Constitution. " Section 32. The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."

 

[epsylum]

How LE views the situation is important, because well, they decide if you go to jail.

...and if they arrest you on a BS non-existant law, you get to sue the hell out of them.

 

[techres]

Steelman, if you do not want to keep a shotgun/AR in your car loaded/unloaded, then don't.

If you do, then ask whomever you will listen to as authoritative.

But in the end, if it is too uncomfortable for you, then just keep/get your LTCH and be happy with it.

Personally, I have repeatedly considered a trunk gun. Why? For when I travel to handgun unfriendly states and want to have something in the trunk in case I need something.

One of the folding kel-tec rifles would be great.

 

[rhino]

For what it's worth, I frequently have an AR in the cab of my truck with a full magazine inserted.

Anyone else? I suspect a loaded 12ga is more common.

 

[Steelman]

Steelman, if you do not want to keep a shotgun/AR in your car loaded/unloaded, then don't.

If you do, then ask whomever you will listen to as authoritative.

But in the end, if it is too uncomfortable for you, then just keep/get your LTCH and be happy with it.

Personally, I have repeatedly considered a trunk gun. Why? For when I travel to handgun unfriendly states and want to have something in the trunk in case I need something.

One of the folding kel-tec rifles would be great.

The trunk is not a readily accessible area of the vehicle. I place an assortment of rifles and shotguns in my trunk unloaded and in a case.



Looking for the correct answer to the question, that's all.

 

[Steelman]

For what it's worth, I frequently have an AR in the cab of my truck with a full magazine inserted.

Anyone else? I suspect a loaded 12ga is more common.

Any experience with a traffic stop?

 

[cordex]

Looking for the correct answer to the question, that's all.

Correct answer to what?
It has always been my understanding (and like others, I'm curious about it so I've researched it) that there is no law specifically restricting the toting of a rifle (loaded or no) in public. You have even admitted that too, didn't you?

I am willing to concede the point that there is no ACTUAL law in Indiana.

So what is the question that you are looking for the answer to?

Is the question: Are you able to carry a loaded firearm in public in all circumstances and in all places and be entirely safe from being hassled? The answer is, of course, no.