Told by FWPD illegal to OC in Indiana

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • thebishopp

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Nov 26, 2010
    1,286
    38
    Indiana
    Thanks for trolling! See ya later! Have a nice trip, see ya next fall!
    Oh and I saw the purple, then saw your popcorn. Maybe you should make your popcorn purple also!

    Popcorn can't be made purple.


    Here I will respond more in depth:


    Why would anyone want to be willfully arrested? Come on guys. I'm all for standing up for my rights, but I draw the line at being arrested if I have a choice. I chose to comply to the Officer's requests which led to me not being arrested. I stated to him what my rights were, he told me otherwise. Right or wrong, I chose not to be arrested (falsely or justly). I would rather battle this through an attorney than put on a public demonstration. You can call me a coward if you like. Please keep in mind that I am a father, a husband, and run a business of 15 people. I have people who depend on me daily. The last thing I want is to argue with the police and be arrested for trying to prove a couple of officers wrong. Neither one of the officers were going to agree with me. I will battle this thing a way that works for me. I hope most of you understand this.

    Obviously your concern for your "rights" in this matter just was not more than the concern for the inconveniences that standing up for them at that moment would entail.

    You asked "why would anyone" - Which was why I mentioned Rosa Parks. She violated a city ordinance and was arrested. Why would she want to do this? She knew she would be arrested. Even though she was part of the civil rights movement before her "civil disobedience" she had no way to know if it would have a beneficial outcome. I'd go so far to say that there was a strong likelihood that it could have had a very very bad outcome, especially for her personally.

    In fact I daresay the inconveniences that she faced was a bit more than the inconveniences you may of had to endure (with far less of a "return" than you would have had on your "investment").

    In her biography she says "People always say that I didn't give up my seat because I was tired, but that isn't true. I was not tired physically, or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day. I was not old, although some people have an image of me as being old then. I was forty-two. No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in".

    Maybe our "rights" wouldn't be so "infringed" if we all were just a bit more "tired of giving in".

    Edit (Had to throw a couple quotes in of course!):

    H. L. Mencken:

    I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air – that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave.


    Frederick Douglass:

    Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will.
     
    Last edited:

    T-DOGG

    I'm Spicy, deal with it.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 99.6%
    263   1   0
    Feb 4, 2011
    17,568
    149
    New Haven
    Obviously your concern for your "rights" in this matter just was not more than the concern for the inconveniences that standing up for them at that moment would entail.

    Maybe our "rights" wouldn't be so "infringed" if we all were just a bit more "tired of giving in".


    The "inconveniences" were my wife and child watching me be arrested and trying to explain to my employees why I was in jail. Do you know how an arrest looks on your record? I made a simple choice to not be arrested and approach things from a different angle.

    I did not give in, Sir. I simply went down a different path that you clearly wouldn't have. It's easy to type about how the scenario should have played out differently from a keyboard in the comfort of one's home. Put yourself in my shoes my friend. I made my decision at the time, going from my gut instinct, which is to not get arrested. If you want to be the next Rosa Parks, you go right ahead. Maybe I will give directions from the backseat the whole way for you. But don't haggle me about how I handled the situation that I was put into. I handled it the best way I knew how at the moment.
    My fight is not over with the FWPD, far from it. Thanks for the support.
     

    Hookeye

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Dec 19, 2011
    15,127
    77
    armpit of the midwest
    They can drag me in.............. and buy me one of these (plus others)

    1861.jpg
     

    thebishopp

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Nov 26, 2010
    1,286
    38
    Indiana
    The "inconveniences" were my wife and child watching me be arrested and trying to explain to my employees why I was in jail. Do you know how an arrest looks on your record? I made a simple choice to not be arrested and approach things from a different angle.

    I did not give in, Sir. I simply went down a different path that you clearly wouldn't have. It's easy to type about how the scenario should have played out differently from a keyboard in the comfort of one's home. Put yourself in my shoes my friend. I made my decision at the time, going from my gut instinct, which is to not get arrested. If you want to be the next Rosa Parks, you go right ahead. Maybe I will give directions from the backseat the whole way for you. But don't haggle me about how I handled the situation that I was put into. I handled it the best way I knew how at the moment.
    My fight is not over with the FWPD, far from it. Thanks for the support.

    Like I said. I do not know why you seem to feel offended.

    It was simply that you felt that the "inconvenience" of having your wife and kids see you arrested, as well as having to explain to your employees that you were making a stand was more than what you felt that particular "right" (right to carry) was greater than the need/desire to stand up for that particular "right".

    Note that I am not typing this in any sort of "tone". It is what it is. In fact you stated so in your post. Am I not just repeating what you said?

    You have elected to pursue this in a more passive manner. A different "angle".

    If you do follow through who knows, you may accomplish something you may not (though it has already been stated that this issue is common in FW so it does not look like the odds are in your favor).

    While some say your rights were violated you were "warned" but not actually "arrested". The officer was wrong about the law, but he did not actually enforce his misinterpretation, you chose to comply so you were not forced to leave any area and, again, you were not arrested or cited. You were also WARNED not threatened that HAD you been arrested it COULD negatively impact your ability to have a handgun permit/license/whatever.

    Look at it this way. What if the officer told you it was against the law to wear blue on Tuesdays and it happened to be Tuesday and you were wearing blue. He says, "you know we COULD arrest you because it's illegal to wear blue on Tuesdays, here talk to my Sgt" and the Sgt says the same thing. They WARN you that HAD you been arrested it COULD negatively impact your ability to wear blue shirts even on Tuesdays.

    So instead of arguing you change your shirt.

    Hey, you chose to change your shirt. They didn't actually arrest you. They didn't make you leave because you refused to change your shirt (heck you did so voluntarily). If they had THEN your rights would have been "violated" (far as I know you have the right to wear whatever color shirt you want on whatever day you want). As I recall you also stated that they said they "could" arrest you and not that they "would" arrest you.

    Maybe you could say your property was seized though I am not aware of a single case (lawyers please jump in) where this has resulted in some kind of disciplinary action against the officers and/or department.

    Seems to me you got nothing. City may give you lip service and talk about fixing things (if they even feel like it - again I refer to others statements that this is a common problem there and it appears other complaints have had no effect).

    With no actual rights violations - and I would say that your "rights" weren't violated by a simple unenforced wrong opinion - I am not quite sure what kind of "victory" you will have in this. Certainly not anything worth mentioning. Of course I may be wrong. You may wind up changing the thoughts and minds of every wrong thinking officer and public official in that town (not being sarcastic - no purple - it is possible however unlikely) just because they suddenly see the light with your letter.

    If I felt you were cowardly I would have called you such, and believe me I have no problems saying so if I think it. Look, like I said before, you just didn't think it was worth the hassle. That's fine. In fact I think that's the opinion of most Americans these days. Just not worth the hassle. Again, I don't think you complied out of fear. I just think that you didn't feel it was worth it (in fact you have said so).

    As far as Rosa Parks goes. She did feel it was worth the hassle. She was just "tired of giving in". To her standing up for her "rights" was more important the very real problems she would face by doing so. Had they not arrested her then the situation would not have been able to be used by the civil rights movement to such great effect.

    Isn't it awfully great that people who find such "inconveniences" too much are the beneficiaries of those who are willing to sacrifice much much more?

    I for one thank god for people like Rosa Parks.
     
    Last edited:

    thebishopp

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Nov 26, 2010
    1,286
    38
    Indiana
    Before the "you are just defending the cops" people come out. Fact is I think they came very near screwing the pooch on this one and were obviously in the wrong (based upon the OP's post).

    Had he actually been arrested, or had been physically removed from the property (without the owner actually requesting it) then the OP would have one heck of a case (IMO).

    However with the OP "complying" (without threat of unlawful force) then, imo, there were no actual violations of his rights. Now, imo, there was the "implication" that his rights "could" be violated if he didn't comply.
     

    T-DOGG

    I'm Spicy, deal with it.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 99.6%
    263   1   0
    Feb 4, 2011
    17,568
    149
    New Haven
    After sleeping on this overnight I have concluded two things that will occur from here on out. First, there will be either a letter/formal complaint filed with the city or if money allows it legal action through an attorney to address the harassment I received. Second, I will continue to open carry in Fort Wayne because it is legal to do so.
    Since reading all of the input from everyone on here and from thinking over the situation I have also decided that I will not handle it the same next time. I will take a stand. Because the bishopp is right, we should stand up for our rights. If and when I am harassed by the police, I will ask for supervisor after supervisor until someone shows up that actually knows the law, if they arrest me so be it. My wife has told me that she stands behind me 100% (she also has a lifetime LTCH) and doesn't like the idea of being harassed for exercising our rights. So yeah, next time will be different. This incident along with all of the support of my fellow INGO'ers has shed a new light on my view of our rights. Thanks to everyone for the support, and bishopp thank you, you have changed my mind sir.
     

    Fixer

    Expert
    Rating - 96.4%
    26   1   1
    Nov 22, 2009
    1,157
    63
    Fort Wayne Area
    I am not sure of the prospects of legal action. I don't think a monetary value will be assessed from just an uninformed officer talking(thats how they would present it I'm sure) to you. If he was wrong are you not partly wrong to for agreeing by covering your weapon. Maybe they know it is legal just tring to bully LTCH holders to cover for their convienence. I have already discussed this with the wife as I OC also. If the same situation occurs I may get arrested because I will not cover my weapon.

    My Father was approached by an off duty FWPD seargent also and was told to cover up. He also covered up his gun, partly out of not knowing 100% that it was not illegal. This is how they perpetuate the lie to unknowing LTCH holders. People naturally think the police don't lie or that they know the laws.
     

    Kirk Freeman

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Mar 9, 2008
    48,073
    113
    Lafayette, Indiana
    I don't think a monetary value will be assessed from just an uninformed officer talking(thats how they would present it I'm sure) to you.

    The statute provides for liquidated damages of thrice the attorney fees.

    The question presented is one of agency. Do the officer's actions bind the City of Fort Wayne?
     

    Fixer

    Expert
    Rating - 96.4%
    26   1   1
    Nov 22, 2009
    1,157
    63
    Fort Wayne Area
    The statute provides for liquidated damages of thrice the attorney fees.

    The question presented is one of agency. Do the officer's actions bind the City of Fort Wayne?
    I would think so since it involved his supervisor also. Just wonder if covering it as asked would play against him?
    Not a legal expert just thinking out loud. Being arrested would be a definate case for payday I would think.
     

    rnmcguire

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Feb 3, 2011
    649
    18
    Plainfield, IN
    If they thought you were committing a crime they would of arrested you. They know what the law is they're just trying to intimidate you into complying with what they believe the law should be. It sucks to be put into that position but if you didn't comply with their demands and conceal the weapon they would of probably charged you with some BS disorderly conduct charge. These idiots need to be held accountable for their actions.:noway:
     

    T-DOGG

    I'm Spicy, deal with it.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 99.6%
    263   1   0
    Feb 4, 2011
    17,568
    149
    New Haven
    The two officers that I dealt with in this matter are representatives of the FWPD. Right, wrong, or indifferent, they have spoken for the City of Fort Wayne and will be dealt with as such.

    If anyone knows an attorney that knows Indiana gun laws please PM me with their contact info. Unfortunately outside of that I would be resorted to the google, or worse, the phone book.
     

    T-DOGG

    I'm Spicy, deal with it.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 99.6%
    263   1   0
    Feb 4, 2011
    17,568
    149
    New Haven
    On a side note, my wife and I will now always be carrying printed copies of IC along with the ISP stance on being silent in this matter. Next time I will be more prepared to stand my ground.
     

    JetGirl

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    May 7, 2008
    18,774
    83
    N/E Corner
    I know a lot of squared away cops in FW.
    mjoyner
    Forum Moderator
    Joined: 17 Nov 2004
    Posts: 364

    There is no requirement to keep a firearm concealed when on your person; however who would want to carry it unconcealed. We have had many past discussions concerning this question. You might enjoy going back to review them.
    THAT is none of their concern. "It's legal" should have been the end of that. The LEO author of that is already headed into his next OC encounter with prejudice. "Who would want to" or "why" is none of his concern. "Legal or Illegal" is his only concern. "Legal = good day, sir"...and that is THAT.

    Have an open carry event and label it the "Officer _________ Ft. Wayne Open Carry Picnic (or March, or whatever).
    I would attend this event.
     

    JetGirl

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    May 7, 2008
    18,774
    83
    N/E Corner
    On a side note, my wife and I will now always be carrying printed copies of IC along with the ISP stance on being silent in this matter. Next time I will be more prepared to stand my ground.

    Post up what you came up with (size/font/etc.)... I might just want to replicate it if it's shrinkable enough to read while still only needing space of an ID holder (I don't carry a bag).
     

    Fixer

    Expert
    Rating - 96.4%
    26   1   1
    Nov 22, 2009
    1,157
    63
    Fort Wayne Area
    On a side note, my wife and I will now always be carrying printed copies of IC along with the ISP stance on being silent in this matter. Next time I will be more prepared to stand my ground.
    I am glad to hear you are well prepared for your next encounter. I am not as prepared though, too lazy to carry that around. I will leave the burden of proof that it is illegal up to them. If enough of us stand up for our rights maybe they will quit passing off personal opinions as law.
     
    Top Bottom