Traffic stop, gun taken.

[maxmayhem]

Exactly what I was thinking...
Are you carrying a gun?

Me: are you?

Can I see your license and registration?

Me: Can I see a picture of your mom?


Seriously, this technique can work. Just have to think about it.

Answer any questions with one of your own...


"Why am I being detained?"

 

[ATM]

...I don't recall reading one where the driver replied to everything with "why am I being detained?".

I'd only ask that question until I was told why I was being detained or that I wasn't being detained.

Then my question would be, "Am I free to go now?"

I see nothing impolite in retaining my rights by keeping the conversation limited to the business at hand.

 

[Hammerhead]

If you're pulled over for BREAKING the law, WHY is it unreasonable for a police officer to hold on to your gun until he sorts things out?

I was pulled over, CLEARLY GUILTY on Hwy 52 in Boone County doing 90+ mph (in a 60mph zone) about a year and a half ago by a Boone County Deputy Sheriff.

The officer was polite, but did ask me if I had any firearms on me.
I told him I had a handgun in a fannypack on the passenger seat, and also had a Lifetime Carry permit. (which I showed him)

He came around to the passenger side and told me he was going to hold on to it while he ran my license.
I just stayed in the car and never got out.

He ran my license, gave me my ticket (lucky I didn't get towed in) and placed the fannypack with my handgun in the back seat.

He then told me that he hadn't actually opened it to see what I was carrying.

I told him I had a Glock 29 10mm with some hot loads.

He smiled and said "wow, that's a lot of firepower!"

And I was on my way.

Had to pay about $390 or so fine if memory serves...
But Hey, I was guilty.

First off, you do not have to inform, so you willfully gave up your right to ignore a question that had absolutely nothing to do with your supposed traffic infraction. Second, you committed a traffic infraction, not a Class A Felony. He doesn't need to know about anything in your car. Thirdly, you didn't protest when he illegally came around and into your car and took your property?

Why is it unreasonable? Not only have the courts determined that "officer safety" only goes so far and that upon providing a valid LTCH they can't further question or require you to disarm, but there's no reason for you to answer any question a cop asks. And no, providing DL, registration, and/or insurance info isn't answering a question, it's giving required paperwork when stopped while driving.

Keep your trap shut and stop giving up your rights.

Edited to add: Generic you, not specific you.

 

[smbaldwin]

How many of you have actually taken this approach during a traffic stop? With what results?

I've read all the stories - the experience seems to vary widely, but I don't recall reading one where the driver replied to everything with "why am I being detained?".

If I was a LEO and a driver took that approach, my tendency would be to do everything I legally could to make his life as difficult as possible for as long as possible. I try to treat others the way I would like to be treated, and I really dislike having someone answer a question with the same question repeated over and over.

This response seems to be very much a high risk / high reward proposition. However, it also seems almost certain to result in a ticket instead of a warning. But then again, spending $150 beats getting a gun pointed at you.

the question should be " am i being detained officer, or am I free to go" he could answer why with something like "you match a description". I am in no way a lawyer, or even think i know my leagalees, but i have been told by a friend who i trust knows more about it than i ever hope to, that it makes a differance in court. just what i have heard but it could be a load of crap.

 

[snowman46919]

Trivial probably has a different meaning to you than it does me. I have made stops for "trivial" things, but having a taillight out usually isn't one of them.

I think the trivial stops are in no specific order: a tail light out (especially on the mid 90s cars that have like 10 per side), license plate light dim(I got a warning for this one), getting pulled over simply because I was leaving a bar (he said it was a seatbelt which everyone in the car was wearing and I got breathalysed), I have even been pulled over for driving a red sunfire. That was the only reason I got pulled over because they had a report of someone in a red sunfire street racing, I wanted to look at the guy and go you know I think in an effort to make money general motors might have made more than one or two of these in a variety of different colors. He then accused me of a flashlight being paraphernalia. I am not trying to start something here just saying those would be the trivial types of things I was referring to.
/

 

[edporch]

First off, you do not have to inform, so you willfully gave up your right to ignore a question that had absolutely nothing to do with your supposed traffic infraction. Second, you committed a traffic infraction, not a Class A Felony. He doesn't need to know about anything in your car. Thirdly, you didn't protest when he illegally came around and into your car and took your property?

Why is it unreasonable? Not only have the courts determined that "officer safety" only goes so far and that upon providing a valid LTCH they can't further question or require you to disarm, but there's no reason for you to answer any question a cop asks. And no, providing DL, registration, and/or insurance info isn't answering a question, it's giving required paperwork when stopped while driving.

Keep your trap shut and stop giving up your rights.

Edited to add: Generic you, not specific you.

They say that "circumstances alter cases". and you should choose your battles wisely.
This was NOT the time or the place to be "right"....
I also have known a man most of my life since he was in law school (I was a kid) and is now a retired judge (and avid gun owner).
He says the police officer was within the law wanting to know of firearms within my reach.

Being that I was going over 90mph in a 60mph zone, AND that I misplaced my proof of insurance card. I risked having my car towed in with ALL my stuff in it.

The LAST thing I want is having the stuff in my car gone through and/or stolen when it's towed in.

In my TRUNK were SEVERAL expensive weapons, a computer with business records, tax records, 10+ years of emails and contacts. camera equipment worth $5k+.

Because of MY bad choice of driving 90+mph, I brought on myself a police officer who could've made things REALLY hard for me.

"Discretion was the better part of valor that day" and I would do EXACTLY the same thing again.

 

[squirrelhntr]

I've come to the conclusion that you should absolutely NOT inform, even if asked. I've read way too many stories about the things the police do to law abiding citizens once their perceived power structure is imbalanced by your firearm. You do not have to answer any questions from a police officer, especially ones outside the topic of your traffic infraction, if that is the reason for your visit. The only reason that I would inform is if I was about to get a pat-down.

exactly. if u talk about your rights the leo will probably get mad. just say no. unless u know em or until just before the pat - down. oh ya, i forgot i had that.

 

[3gunshooter]

I work in Warsaw lots of my coworkers tell of such things. Bottom line is keep your permit where they can't see it and don't tell them you have a firearm unless they ask.

 

[rambone]

exactly. if u talk about your rights the leo will probably get mad.

Any officer who gets mad at you for holding onto your constitutional rights ought reevaluate his career choice, and that silly little oath he took.

These stories make me sick. I can barely keep up with all the rights-violating madness that goes on.

 

[Hammerhead]

They say that "circumstances alter cases". and you should choose your battles wisely.
This was NOT the time or the place to be "right"....
I also have known a man most of my life since he was in law school (I was a kid) and is now a retired judge (and avid gun owner).
He says the police officer was within the law wanting to know of firearms within my reach. Sure, he can ask anything. He's within the law wondering if I'm wearing purple socks. Doesn't mean we have to answer.

Being that I was going over 90mph in a 60mph zone, AND that I misplaced my proof of insurance card. I risked having my car towed in with ALL my stuff in it.

The LAST thing I want is having the stuff in my car gone through and/or stolen when it's towed in.

In my TRUNK were SEVERAL expensive weapons, a computer with business records, tax records, 10+ years of emails and contacts. camera equipment worth $5k+.

Because of MY bad choice of driving 90+mph, I brought on myself a police officer who could've made things REALLY hard for me.

"Discretion was the better part of valor that day" and I would do EXACTLY the same thing again.

It's not about being right on the side of the road. It's a matter of not giving up your rights anywhere. Sure, you were speeding excessively, you misplaced your insurance information (which coincidentally is listed on your valid registration) and you didn't want to futz with having your car towed and you being arrested for reckless driving. Those were your first problems. You owned up to them, kudos, and you agree that you deserved your ticket.

What part of getting your ticket and paying your fine involves opening your mouth about things the police do not need to know about? So what you had a lot of stuff in your car you didn't want stolen. Again, why do you need to answer questions?

It seems a lot of people equate being silent on questions not pertaining to the issue at hand to being a jerk/being right/being condescending/not cooperating. I've never advocated (and I rarely ever see members actually advocating) refusing to cooperate with police or being total dillholes when being pulled over. What seems to be the consensus is to not answer questions, or at the very least, keeping the topic of discussion between you and the police when interacting officially confined to the task at hand. There's no reason to feel bullied, to give up any of your rights, or to answer questions unrelated. If they get flustered about it, follow Kirk's advice and blow kisses at them. If they take you being silent as an affront, that's their problem.

We all know that they can and will use anything you say even before they Mirandize you against you if they're going to escalate the situation. Why give them any more ammunition (so to speak)?

 

[dross]

Officer: I'm going to ask you a question that has nothing to do with the purpose of this stop that has to do with whether you are currently exercising a natural and Constitutional right. Do you have a gun?

You: Am I being detained?

Officer: I have now become annoyed because you answered a question with a question. Please prepare yourself for the misery I'm going to subject you to so you may feel punished for your insolence.

Yeah, makes sense.

Kind of like that guy we all know who constantly interrupts when you're having a conversation. Have you ever noticed how irritated he gets when you interrupt HIM?

It all boils down to power. If the officer annoys you, you have the power to sit there and be annoyed. If you annoy the officer, he has the power to make you miserable.

 

[AndersonIN]

Exactly what I was thinking...
Are you carrying a gun?

Me: are you?

Can I see your license and registration?

Me: Can I see a picture of your mom?


Seriously, this technique can work. Just have to think about it.

Or just ask..............Do you have any naked pictures of your mom? No? Would you like some??? Always cracks them up!

 

[DragonGunner]

I work in Warsaw lots of my coworkers tell of such things. Bottom line is keep your permit where they can't see it and don't tell them you have a firearm unless they ask.

I agree, but I'm not even going to tell them I have a gun even if they do ask....."I have nothing illegal officer, am I free to go." they can either get tired of that answer, or call for back up, get a search warrant an or beat the bejesus out of me....sounds like Warsaw cops suck....hope my son took his wife up there to file a complaint.

 

[Hooker]

When asking the officer, "Am I being detained?" wouldn't he respond in the affirmative since he pulled you over for speeding and is not finished with his business?

"Do you know why I pulled you over?"
"No sir."
"You were going 90 is a 60."
"Wow, I had no idea I was going that fast."
"Do you have any guns or other weapons in the car?"
"Am I being detained, sir?"
"Answer the question please."
"Am I free to go?"
"No, you are not free to go. I am not finished with this traffic stop. Do you have any guns in the car?"

So where does it go from here? Do you then assert that you will not be waiving any Consititutional rights afforded you, including the right to remain silent?

And if he eventually reaches into the car to disarm you, do you respond, "I am not going to resist you officer, but I do not consent to a seizure of my property."

The cop is not going to let you go at this point, if he is detaining you, then what?

 

[edporch]

When asking the officer, "Am I being detained?" wouldn't he respond in the affirmative since he pulled you over for speeding and is not finished with his business?

"Do you know why I pulled you over?"
"No sir."
"You were going 90 is a 60."
"Wow, I had no idea I was going that fast."
"Do you have any guns or other weapons in the car?"
"Am I being detained, sir?"
"Answer the question please."
"Am I free to go?"
"No, you are not free to go. I am not finished with this traffic stop. Do you have any guns in the car?"

So where does it go from here? Do you then assert that you will not be waiving any Consititutional rights afforded you, including the right to remain silent?

And if he eventually reaches into the car to disarm you, do you respond, "I am not going to resist you officer, but I do not consent to a seizure of my property."

The cop is not going to let you go at this point, if he is detaining you, then what?

I'm NOT disagreeing with you in theory.
But in REAL LIFE, these hypothetical dialogs don't always go so smoothly as they do on the Youtube civil libertarian instructional videos. :-)
SOMETIMES due to circumstances, it's better to pick your fight for another day...
Though YMMV... :-)

It's also legal for officer safety to ascertain whether the person being stopped is armed with a handgun.
The Deputy was well within his rights to want to know.
He ALSO had no way of knowing I wasn't fleeing a crime, driving fast with a car full of weapons.

In my case, it was along the lines of (not word for word):

Deputy-"Do you know how fast you were going?"

Me- "No I don't, but I won't argue with what you say" (I KNEW I had been at times doing 95+, but truly didn't know how fast I was going when he clocked me)

Deputy-"Well I clocked you at over 90mph... I can't let you off with just a warning for that kind of speed. In fact we will often impound people's cars for that kind of speed (which I had no doubt)."
NOTE: At this point I'm GUILTY of SPEEDING and RECKLESS DRIVING (more than 15 over the speed limit)

Deputy-"Would you give me your Driver's License and Proof of Insurance?"
Me-"Yes"
I pulled my Driver's License out and gave it to him, and went into the glove compartment to my owners manual where I kept my Proof of Insurance.
I found that my CURRENT Proof of Insurance wasn't there, only my previous one. (I thought I had put the new one in but I guess I hadn't)

Me-"I can't find it, but as God is my witness I DO have insurance. But I do have my previous expired Proof of Insurance"
NOTE: So now in ADDITION to SPEEDING and RECKLESS DRIVING, I'm NOW GUILTY of FAILURE TO SHOW PROOF OF INSURANCE.

Deputy-"do you have any weapons in the car?"
Me- "Yes, I have a handgun in a fag bag on the seat. But I do have a Lifetime Permit to carry, and this isn't anything worth shooting anybody over..."
I pulled it out of my wallet and gave it to him.
"I'm gonna come around to your passenger side and hold on to your handgun until I run your license".

NOTE: I FAILED to tell him of the 5.56NATO LRWC M4 Piston rifle, with Trijicon ACOG scope, with 4 loaded 30 round mags on the floor of the back seat with a blanket over it worth around $3k,
OR in the trunk
the Pre-ban M1A with loaded mags worth at least $1.5k+
and
the range bag of handguns with loaded magazines in the trunk worth about $2k.
I DIDN'T WANT THINGS COMPLICATED FURTHER BY THE DEPUTY FINDING OUT I HAD ALL THESE OTHER WEAPONS TOO.
PLUS my computer with business, tax and personal records, AND $5k worth of digital photography equipment in my trunk.

MY #1 PRIORITY WAS TO NOT HAVE MY CAR IMPOUNDED, AND NOT TO BE A PRICK TO A DEPUTY WHO WAS GIVING ME A BREAK...

The Deputy returned and had me sign JUST a speeding ticket for going 90mph in a 60mph zone.
He didn't charge me with RECKLESS DRIVING or NO PROOF OF INSURANCE.

He then came opened the back seat door and put my fag bag (fannypack) in on the back seat.
Deputy-"I didn't look to see what kind of handgun you're carrying.
Mind if I ask what it is?"
Me-"It's a Glock 29 10mm with some hot loads"
Deputy- "Wow, that's a lot of firepower" as he smiled.

In the end, I would do everything the way I did it that day.

The Boone County Deputy was MORE than fair to me.

In THIS instance "discretion was the better form of valor..."

 

[Hooker]

I understand what you were trying to acheive. It was a difficult minefield to navigate. I just keep hearing about how people say they would just keep repeating the same questions over and over, but the fact is that they ARE being detained for speeding. So then what? My question was more a general one and not aimed at your situation specifically. I am curious to know how those who REFUSE to answer any questions would handle the scenario.

 

[DragonGunner]

You can see what my son posted about this incident in "2nd Ammendment" section under the title "Cop Search"....They filed a complaint, the officer knew before he went up to the car she had a LTCH becuase it came up, she did not give consent......the officer was young, but very polite but had no right to disarm her....officer name could not be read, my son may post his badge number later over there on his post..they are looking into it........right.

 

[Rookie]

You have the right to keep your mouth shut. The officer can't reach into your car without probable cause, besides, it would be difficult for him to reach in if your window is only rolled down a few inches and your doors are locked. He can ask any question he wants. You can refuse to engage in conversation.

 

[edporch]

You have the right to keep your mouth shut. The officer can't reach into your car without probable cause, besides, it would be difficult for him to reach in if your window is only rolled down a few inches and your doors are locked. He can ask any question he wants. You can refuse to engage in conversation.

You are right in theory.
BUT if I had taken a constitutionally confrontational stance in my SPECIFIC case, by the time things were sorted out and was shown in court to be "right", I would've lsot THOUSANDS of dollars.
I'm not about to have thousands of dollars in weapons confiscated, and either never get them back, or get them back damaged.
I chose to "fight" another day.

But if you'd like to have your car full of thousands of dollars in weapons, get stopped for going 90+ MPH, be confrontational and RISK having them ILLEGALLY siezed, then have to fight to get them back, HAVE AT IT... :-)
Let us know how it turns out... LOL

"Discretion IS sometimes the better part of valor"

 

[Rookie]

I understand your position. My answer was really more aimed at the question hooker had.

I, personally, would not put myself in the position you put yourself in. That way I don't have to consider compromising my rights.