Tragic

[d.kaufman]

Just heard on Wgn news that the father has bonded out. There is a vigil for the girl at Hobart High School at 7pm. Im wondering if he's gonna be there. I couldn't imagine the boys or mother wanting to be anywhere near him.

 

[HubertGummer]

Regardless of whether it's 3 or 4 rules, this guy didn't follow any rules. Not a single one. Re-ordering the rules wouldn't have changed a thing.

It baffles me how a father could toy with his children's life in such a way.

 

[Snapdragon]

"...she walked in the room and I pointed it at her and pulled the trigger, thinking it was empty.”

 

[cbhausen]

"...she walked in the room and I pointed it at her and pulled the trigger, thinking it was empty.”

Therein lies the problem. Thinking it was empty. How many have really stopped to think why we treat guns differently when we "think" they are empty? Treating them all "as if they are loaded" or "they are always loaded" is not working.

 

[mom45]

Therein lies the problem. Thinking it was empty. How many have really stopped to think why we treat guns differently when we "think" they are empty? Treating them all "as if they are loaded" or "they are always loaded" is not working.

It works if you follow the rule. He didn't follow any rules. I wouldn't point a gun at someone even with the mag out and the slide locked open.

Even when I KNOW it is empty, I treat it like it is loaded. ALWAYS
I don't point it at anything I am not willing to kill.
I don't put my finger on the trigger unless I am prepared to inflict lethal harm on the subject in front of the gun.

Who points a firearm at a family member? Ever? So much fail here.

Again...this is not about rules. This is about reckless actions that resulted in the death of his own flesh and blood. He has to live with that for the rest of his life. His sons have to live with what they witnessed. The girl's mother has to live with the loss of her daughter and knowing it was at the hands of her husband and becaues of his reckless act.

 

[mbills2223]

The argument unfolding here is completely asinine and nothing more than a game of semantics.

 

[donballz]

How in the world could someone think that pointing a gun at their children and pulling the trigger would possibly teach anything constructive. I guess the boys do see how dangerous guns are after dad murdererd sis right in front of them.

This is way more offensive as a father than a gun owner.

That's what I don't get. I point my gun at my daughter and pull the bangstick and it goes <click>. What lesson has my son just learned? That sometimes it's ok to pretend shoot someone? That guns really aren't all that dangerous? This is the dumbest most infuriating thing I have ever read.

 

[actaeon277]

Are we done rehashing rules that have been discussed in other threads?

 

[donballz]

A better way to respond would be to say, "That's why we ALWAYS keep them pointed in a safe direction."

Loaded/unloaded is of trifling significance and should never be considered the most important thing.

Teach them what to do first, last and ALWAYS, how to simply do it, and most importantly ...why.

Change your culture.

I get what you're saying (repeatedly) with this but I have always understood treating guns like they are loaded to emphasize how important it is to keep it pointed safe and keep your finger off the trigger. I don't think any rule is above the others.

 

[cbhausen]

It's pretty shallow for anyone on here to be inconvenienced or bothered by what they think is rehashing of 3 vs. 4 rules or arguing over semantics or what order they should be written in. The gun culture does have a problem here and we all know it. Stuff like this happens far too often and on top of the pain and suffering it causes it jeopardizes all of our rights.

Again, I ask: Why do far too many of us think it's OK to point a gun in an unsafe direction (especially at oneself another human being we are not willing to terminate) if we think it's unloaded? Where did this notion come from? And why just because you get it right all the time do you not find it worthy of critical examination when others do not?

Are you content with the status quo? Is the current rate of negligent dischargees resulting in serious injury or death acceptable to you?

 

[Wild Deuce]

*

 

[lonehoosier]

Hobart remembers 9-year-old girl killed in Saturday shooting
Hobart remembers 9-year-old girl killed in Saturday shooting | Crime and Courts | nwitimes.com

 

[actaeon277]

It's pretty shallow for anyone on here to be inconvenienced or bothered by what they think is rehashing of 3 vs. 4 rules or arguing over semantics or what order they should be written in. The gun culture does have a problem here and we all know it. Stuff like this happens far too often and on top of the pain and suffering it causes it jeopardizes all of our rights.

Again, I ask: Why do far too many of us think it's OK to point a gun in an unsafe direction (especially at oneself another human being we are not willing to terminate) if we think it's unloaded? Where did this notion come from? And why just because you get it right all the time do you not find it worthy of critical examination when others do not?

Are you content with the status quo? Is the current rate of negligent dischargees resulting in serious injury or death acceptable to you?

Shallow.
Or, we're just rehashing the same arguments over and over and over and over and over.

 

[Snapdragon]

to Mbills and Act. This act of absolute stupidity transcends any rules, no matter how they are worded.

 

[223 Gunner]

It is this kind of stuff that fuels the gun control advocates, that all gun owners are idiots. Wow really unbelievable, it scares me that someone like him can own a gun. Yes I know how that sounds, this is exactly why liberals want gun control, to protect us from ourselves. As a community we need to start acting like the responsible adults that we claim to be.
All the "fail" has already been covered in this thread.
Prayers for the family, that the boys will turn out normal, and that Mom can some day find some peace of mind and forgiveness.

 

[cordex]

Then give them the most important lesson first, last and ALWAYS. Remove any stumbling blocks that would usurp this highest place of importance.

If people didn't so regularly short circuit every other rule because "it's unloaded!" then I'd agree 100%. The stumbling block that most commonly results in a death and injury is not someone confused by Cooper #1, it is someone believing that they can treat a gun cavalierly if they think it is unloaded. Prioritization of NRA #1/Cooper #2 - which you absolutely correctly identify as the primary action which ensures safety - doesn't automagically fix that short circuit. It doesn't even address it. You say that it is a deception to think that people need a reason to point a gun in a safe direction, and I say it is willful ignorance to look at the available evidence and claim that.

Therein lies the problem. Thinking it was empty. How many have really stopped to think why we treat guns differently when we "think" they are empty?

I absolutely have. You seem to assume that the cause for this must be people who have received training in Cooper4 and were so confused by Cooper #1 that they decided to discard the rest. Personally, I believe Cooper #1 was formed to address an underlying and fundamental psychological issue that persists to this day. The problem come from knowing a little bit about guns and a little bit of knowledge being dangerous. It doesn't take a great mind to figure out that an unloaded gun is essentially inert. Why should you treat an inert object as if it was not inert?

However you prefer to instruct it, for someone to treat guns safely they must buy in to the somewhat absurd notion that even if a gun is absolutely and incontrovertibly unloaded one must behave as if it contained ammunition and follow all the safety precautions one would take with a fully loaded and ready to fire weapon. Yes, that's a self-deception, but without it accidents happen, bad habits are built, others can learn bad habits, and observers might feel threatened. Cooper #1 puts the deception right out in the open where it can be addressed. You'd rather mask it as "guns only have one job" or whatever your preferred obfuscation, as though hiding it will make it easier to understand and internalize.

Treating them all "as if they are loaded" or "they are always loaded" is not working.

Unfollowed rules never work no matter how good they are. If there were a case where an NRA instructor - someone who knew and taught NRA3 - failed to follow NRA #1, would you mark that down as a failure of NRA3 and demand they be discarded?

 

[cbhausen]

Of course unfollowed rules never work! The question is why was the rule not followed!

I sincerely believe if we as instructors (and we all are instructors) spent as much time, effort, and energy emphasizing NRA1 as 1 of 4 it would make a diffeeence. It could make a difference, and that alone makes the effort worth it.

Let me ask you:

1) What is a safe direction?
2) Is there any reason whatsoever to ever point a gun in an unsafe direction?

This is The Golden Rule, the one and only one that needs to be followed to prevent tragedy.

 

[cordex]

Of course unfollowed rules never work! The question is why was the rule not followed!

I already covered why people choose not to follow the rules. People think they can treat unloaded guns differently because unloaded guns are in fact different than loaded guns and anyone can easily prove that to themselves. As a community we don't like to admit this out loud because it's a dangerous truth. One must buy in to following the rules even in cases where it seems unnecessary in order to be consistently safe with firearms. That you prefer to conceal that deception does not make it more likely to be followed.

If, however, you have information showing that Cooper #1 is the real reason people are unsafe with guns then I'm very interested to hear your evidence.

I sincerely believe if we as instructors (and we all are instructors) spent as much time, effort, and energy emphasizing NRA1 as 1 of 4 it would make a diffeeence.

I sincerely believe that discarding Cooper #1 is likely to make a negative difference.

People can, do, and will show themselves that unloaded guns are different and will choose to ignore the rules for guns they think are unloaded. If you're not getting buy in on the applicability of rules, changing the order or scrapping Cooper #1 isn't going to do a damn thing when it comes to saving lives because it ignores the series of decisions and reasoning leading to the negligence.

It could make a difference, and that alone makes the effort worth it.

What if it could lead to more deaths?

As a side note to the people who are sick and tired of this debate, I think that as wrong as he is on this subject, ATM and his spear carriers have done INGO a great service to keep Cooper #1 in front of all of us. That alone helps remind readers here that the rules always apply, and that's one reason I'm happy to continue the discussion - even though he is so invested in his position that he is incapable of admitting where he is wrong.

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;kQrlDUIZ3f0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQrlDUIZ3f0[/video]

 

[HoughMade]

For God's sake, get up off the couch, expose the deceptions and start saving some lives.

Show people how to be successful and most importantly, why.

So that's what you think you're doing, huh?

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