Unreasonable to ask for signed bill of sale on private gun sale?

[CPT Nervous]

If the gun you purchased was from a gun store (FFL), it would be registered in your name, and they would have that info. If it was from a private seller, that would be a different story.

Registered in my name?


I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[maxmayhem]

its up to you to require and up to them if they want to....reasonable to sign and reasonable not to want to sign but comes with the territory if you want it or not...

 

[JetGirl]

Stop it. Just stop it.

Why would they come to me? They would have no means to track the gun to me.

If the gun you purchased was from a gun store (FFL), it would be registered in your name,

There is no registration in the state of Indiana.
There is, however, a paper trail through FFL.

The search goes like this:

*gun from crime found>

Manufacturer contacted with serials>

Distributor contacted with serials>

Retailer contacted with serials>

Individual contacted with serials>

If the individual transferred/sold/gifted/whatever to another individual through an FFL...it continues to track person to FFL to person to FFL until one of two things happens...

They either:
1) Find gun and current owner if it continuously went through FFL...or...
2) Last guy in the paper trail says, "Sorry, I sold that gun in Captain's log, stardate 41153.7."
Trail ends. You aren't required to show any purchase papers or bill of sale. Period. You won't go to jail. You won't be punched in the face. You won't be raped. You won't be forced to eat worms out of a rusty tuna can with a chipped Taco Bell spork.
You won't be slathered in fish guts and thrown into a pit of mangy hungry feral cats.
You *might* however, be *****slapped by Bunnykid.

 

[JettaKnight]

This tread is so full of fail, misinformation, speculation and warm and fuzzy feelings.

Some people hate the idea of a paper trail, but for the seller it really is a good idea. Can go a good ways to covering your rear if that gun ends up in a crime.

I won't sell one without a signed bill of sale.

If that gun is ever used in a crime and you were the last registered user...

It wouldn't take much to pull up the for sale listing to show that the seller was selling the firearm and had filed a false police report.

If it's a hand gun sale, it's probably more important that you do ask for their ID. To prove they are an Indiana resident.

The only person or entity who I don't feel has the right to know what I own is the .gov.

I don't see any valid reason to be opposed to signing a bill of sale.

I find it very reasonable and I see no reason why someone would mind if they have nothing to hide...

What is the big deal? You sign your receipt whenever you pay with a credit card.

I think this makes sense. It is just to protect the seller, as you say, in the unlikely event that the firearm is used in a crime and has your name on the registration.

I say ask for the signature -- it protects you from going through that ordeal.

And some win:

Apparently they're so uncertain of the character of the person they're selling to that they don't trust that person not to do anything felonious, and thus want to help the police beyond a simple 'Sorry, officer, I sold that years ago. Sorry I cannot be of more help to you.'

Forget 4473s, from this thread alone the conclusion I am left with is that gun owners will be our own worst enemy if and when confiscation is attempted.

Bills of sale are nothing more than stupid feel-good measures.

As long as you're OK with me signing using a fictitious name, I don't see anything unreasonable about wanting a signature on there.

JetGirl, FTW:

1) Find gun and current owner if it continuously went through FFL...or...
2) Last guy in the paper trail says, "Sorry, I sold that gun in Captain's log, stardate 41153.7."
Trail ends. You aren't required to show any purchase papers or bill of sale. Period.

Not even our gun-grabbing Chief Rusty got a BoS for a sale. The cops came asking him questions and he said, "I sold it". Good enough.

My firearm record contains detailed information for C&R stuff and most of the other entries contain something like: bought from "A Guy" and sold to "A Girl". What detailed information I do have is encrypted, for my eyes only.

I'm not going above and beyond the law. If the cops show up looking for my CZ75BD, I'm going to be *pissed* because another gun owner dropped a dime on me when a simple, "I sold it" would suffice.

To the INGOer I sold my CZ75BD to, the cops won't ever come knocking on your door because I didn't record your name.

The rest of you want BoS? Fine do it for a civil law reason, not a criminal law reason. You all have no basis for claims, "When the cops show up..." BS.

And the reality is, with all the guns I've bought and sold (millions!), no one has ever even asked for a receipt or bill of sale.

 

[FERLACH]

This is an interesting topic, because about 25 or 30 years ago, I sold a man (stranger) a S&W 36 snub. We signed a B.O.S. A couple years back, he called me and said the gun was stolen, police had recovered it, and he wanted me to come to the police station and I.D. that it was the gun I had sold him. I did not even remember the transaction, but I told him I could not do it and I never heard anymore about it. Kind of odd that he still had the B.O.S. and my phone number.

 

[JettaKnight]

This is an interesting topic, because about 25 or 30 years ago, I sold a man (stranger) a S&W 36 snub. We signed a B.O.S. A couple years back, he called me and said the gun was stolen, police had recovered it, and he wanted me to come to the police station and I.D. that it was the gun I had sold him. I did not even remember the transaction, but I told him I could not do it and I never heard anymore about it. Kind of odd that he still had the B.O.S. and my phone number.

Point of order: He had a receipt. A bill of sale is for the seller.

And, huh?

Why is this guy calling you? Didn't he report it stolen? He had a record of the S/N, right?

 

[Titanium Man]

Am I being unreasonable asking for private gun buyers to sign a bill of sale? Are others doing this as well?

No. Yes, I do it.

 

[92ThoStro]

You are right... the law does not require you to check ID; no where did I say it did. Don't put words in my mouth. What I said:


It is illegal to sell to a person who resides in another state. The easiest way to ensure you are not violating this law is to verify the buyer has a photo ID issued by the state. that's all I'm saying you should check for is residency, because that is the law. If you know the buyer is a resident of the same state as you by other means (buyer is a friend/relative/co-worker, whatever), then there is no reason to ask for an ID...

"I didn't know" isn't an excuse for most law violations, so I can't imagine "I didn't know he lived in Ohio; he was at the Indy gun show!" would be an excuse for breaking this law.

"I didn't know he was a fellon" is acceptable if you have no reason to believe the person to be a prohibited person.

-rvb

ps:
Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons | ATF



edit: willing to stand corrected:
from the law:

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts


It appears that in the law similar wording exists regarding "reasonable cause to believe" for residency as prohibited persons. So long as you dont have reason to believe they are out of state, you are covered legally. The wording in the FAQ doesn't really mirror the law.

-rvb

Sorry, I took the "responsibility" to mean, you are required to investigate, be it through asking for ID, or some other means. Glad you looked up the actual code, some of the FAQs change the wording.

Unless you have a reason to believe they are not residents, then they are residents.
Unless you have a reason to believe they are felons, they are not felons. Now, this only applies to you, of course they are still felons, but only they will be punished. You can't be held responsible.

Now if they came to do the sale and had New York plates on their vehicle, there would be more evidence that you had a reason to believe that they weren't legit.

You really don't have a responsibility to do anything unless they give you reason to believe otherwise.

I can contact you on here, we can meet at Walmart, and I can give you cash. I can be on foot, and wearing a white t-shirt and jeans. And not show my ID, sign a BOS, or do anything else. And if I turned out to be a felon from New York it isn't your legal responsibility.

Morality is a different story, but you shouldn't legislate morality.

If you want to do something, you can say " Are you a resident of IN, and legally allowed to own this firearm? "

But honestly a criminal or soon to be criminal can just use a fake ID, provide a fake signature on a B.O.S, etc. It doesn't matter, if they want it, they can get it.

It should be all or nothing

Either, do the sale without restrictions, or go do a PPT at an FFL.

Anything in between is laughable at best

I'll pay half for the PPT

Asking for LTCH just excludes the thousands of responsible gun owners who don't carry. And the LTCH is even more worthless than asking for a picture ID. You are asking them to show you a pink piece of printer paper. I can go online and do a quick photo shop and make my own fake one and get it laminated.

 

[Foxfire]

Not at all.

I sold an AR15 recently, I asked and received a signed BOS and took a picture of his Drivers License.

That or he can pay for the transfer.

 

[SmithGuy]

Trail ends. You aren't required to show any purchase papers or bill of sale. Period. You won't go to jail. You won't be punched in the face. You won't be raped. You won't be forced to eat worms out of a rusty tuna can with a chipped Taco Bell spork.
You won't be slathered in fish guts and thrown into a pit of mangy hungry feral cats.
You *might* however, be *****slapped by Bunnykid.

I almost busted a gut reading this! In most cases you are right, but if the gun was used in a high profile case, you better believe that if the trail ends with you they are going to haul your a$$ downtown and put as much pressure on you as possible. Imagine if those Boston bombers dropped a gun at the scene that you originally purchased and legally sold to them without a paper trail. Do you really think the police, FBI, and ATF are going to play nice? They will violate your civil and constitutional rights and then cover it up before you even knew what happened to you.

 

[WebSnyper]

I almost busted a gut reading this! In most cases you are right, but if the gun was used in a high profile case, you better believe that if the trail ends with you they are going to haul your a$$ downtown and put as much pressure on you as possible. Imagine if those Boston bombers dropped a gun at the scene that you originally purchased and legally sold to them without a paper trail. Do you really think the police, FBI, and ATF are going to play nice? They will violate your civil and constitutional rights and then cover it up before you even knew what happened to you.

But that bill of sale you typed up yourself is going to change that? Doubt it.

I don't really care if folks want to write them up/require them, etc. That is their business, but some piece of paper is not going to magically stop any of this. Invoking your rights, and letting them know that you are not talking, etc, while also calling a lawyer would be the correct answer.

 

[Bob Shoemaker]

This is an intriguing thread. I have never been asked to sign.

 

[SmithGuy]

But that bill of sale you typed up yourself is going to change that? Doubt it.

I don't really care if folks want to write them up/require them, etc. That is their business, but some piece of paper is not going to magically stop any of this. Invoking your rights, and letting them know that you are not talking, etc, while also calling a lawyer would be the correct answer.

I agree with you, but having something is better than nothing.

 

[icky]

im confused... last regerstered owner? are we talking about machine guns here or some other nfa weapon? i think if you are that worried about it you shouldnt sell to a private person. just go to your local gun shop and let them do the sale.... wait how many of you voted for obama? the way a lot of you sound you are all for no private sales. do you want to close the nonexistant gun show loop hole? (you know private sales) if you think a bos will do any more for you in a crime situation than just i sold it your just fooling yourself. and it seems to me that the powers that be are already getting closer to there goal of no private sales and a registration just by all the people on here that are suppose to be pro gun that say "that sounds reasonable" or " if you dont have something to hide why should you care" or " traced back to the last regerstered owner" why ? because you are giving up your rights weather you realize it or not you are playing right into the anti gun peoples hands.

 

[rtfisher1]

No, I don't ask for a BoS... I sometimes ask to see their LTCH or Driver License for about two seconds. Nothing written down or recorded.

I have signed BoS a few times, but some guys have even had a blank for SSN and Driver License's numbers. Screw that, I leave em' blank and see if they bring it up. Don't think any have so far.

 

[Birds Away]

Ok, let me see if I have this:

You are paranoid if you won't sign a bill of sale because the police may someday come to your door.

You are not paranoid if you require a bill of sale because the police may someday come to your door.


This is a great thread. Now I know who will be rushing to throw fellow gun owners under the bus whenever the po po show up asking for information you are not required to have.

Thanks all!

No one needs to take your rights away. You people literally beg for the opportunity to give them away. Just so long as you are in the clear.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Unreasonable, no. Necessary, no.

I'm more likely to want a receipt from the seller so that if it gets reported stolen I can show I bought it in good faith.

 

[vork08]

So, you require me to write down my personal info for you to keep? Red Flag
You require me to have a LTCH, or I'm not worthy of purchasing your firearm? Red Flag
PITA ahead.
Time for me to keep walking.

It's your choice, feel free to require it-for someone else.

 

[merotek]

im confused... last regerstered owner? are we talking about machine guns here or some other nfa weapon? i think if you are that worried about it you shouldnt sell to a private person. just go to your local gun shop and let them do the sale.... wait how many of you voted for obama? the way a lot of you sound you are all for no private sales. do you want to close the nonexistant gun show loop hole? (you know private sales) if you think a bos will do any more for you in a crime situation than just i sold it your just fooling yourself. and it seems to me that the powers that be are already getting closer to there goal of no private sales and a registration just by all the people on here that are suppose to be pro gun that say "that sounds reasonable" or " if you dont have something to hide why should you care" or " traced back to the last regerstered owner" why ? because you are giving up your rights weather you realize it or not you are playing right into the anti gun peoples hands.

I too believe it is my RIGHT to own a firearm that cannot be traced!!!

However if you think think that it is your right that I trust you will be responsible with the firearm I sold you... hahahahah.

I want a BoS, period. This in no way has anything to do with me giving up any of my rights

 

[JettaKnight]

I too believe it is my RIGHT to own a firearm that cannot be traced!!!

I'm not sure why that's in purple. For me, it black.

However if you think think that it is your right that I trust you will be responsible with the firearm I sold you... hahahahah.

I want a BoS, period. This in no way has anything to do with me giving up any of my rights

Do you get a BoS for pressure cookers too?

You're not responsible for my actions regardless of a piece of paper.


PS - your avatar is annoying.