Untrained firearms owners

[Big Hank]

Blows me away what I see at ranges. I think ranges need to become zero tolerance on safety problems. If someone is told to stay away from the shooting tables during a cold range, they need the boot if they walk up and grab something without permission. Or maybe they at least sit out the next 'hot range' session. These people don't seem to learn...

Best/worst two range moves I've ever seen. Atturbury a few years ago... What looked like a group of college kids, one turned 90 degrees and pointed down the firing line so his buddy could get a picture of him in the isosceles position. Other move wasn't a safety issue but a lady paid for her range time, then walked out to her bay, then found an RO to tell him that there were no guns in her bay. (she expected to pay at the desk and have a gun with ammo at the bay)

 

[MindfulMan]

Imminent safety concerns aside, just ya'll be careful that your skills and knowledge don't bleed into self-righteousness. An air of superiority converts an opportunity for learning into an opportunity for sh@# in zero time flat.

-Nate

These are wise and well-spoken words.

 

[bwframe]

Glad to see this mentality becoming more and more predominate. Wasn't that many years ago that I was openly chastized right here on INGO for promoting training.

Good to see less and less folks "too smart" for training, on here anyway.

 

[Brad69]

You will be criticized again for thinking training is the right thing if certain members notice the thread.
Its all about freedom and the 2AD not about safe and responsible and they will be the first to shout about the four rules.
Some will go as far to form a basis though internet research to prove training doesn’t matter.

 

[Coach]

I think there are a few things that contribute to a lack of gun safety and skill. The first is a lack of parenting. Many kids today grow up with a serious lack of parenting in many areas but especially in the area of passing on gun knowledge and safety. How can someone pass on what they do not know? Parenting is hard and it takes time and effort and many people just don't want to spend the time doing it.

The second is ego and this is mainly for men. They don't think they need to be taught guns and shooting because they were born with this knowledge. They don't want to go to a class and have to shoot in front of people. Because you cannot hide the results, and obviously if you need some coaching or instruction you are less of a man and should feel bad about yourself. This is a false view and very counter productive. I get approached all the time for a business card "for my wife". Ego is the same reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public. They will give you many reasons and assure you this is not the case but it is the case many times. It is easier to make excuses rather than to step up to the line and make ready.

The third is fear of guns. This is mainly the women. I have had a few hundred ladies in class that were there because their husbands have guns in the house and they just want to understand what they are all about and to be more comfortable. I applaud these ladies for facing the fear and taking the first step. I suspect that for everyone that comes out to a class and starts the process there are ten more that never take the first step. I have been doing this instruction thing since 2008 and I will take female student over a male student every single time, because their ego is not involved and they will do exactly what you tell them.


Fourth many people do not think bad things will happen to them. So they never buy a gun, and if they do they never carry a gun. If they just own it nothing bad will happen.

Fifth many people do not understand what it means to be armed. It takes work to develop gun handling and shooting skills that are necessary to be armed and most people do want to put in the effort. I love the calls when someone wants to do an hour session and have me teach them everything I know and how to clean their gun, and then tell me what they want to pay. An hour on the range and they should be squared away and good to go for defending themselves from the evil people that lurk about the world. What color is the sky in that world?

 

[churchmouse]

What I've learned in training with Coach and BBIs is that I was not nearly as prepared as I thought I was and I imagine if your Niece were to get some serious training she will realize the same thing. A friend of mine said she would just take a couple of shots and the intruder would get the message and retreat. My response was, what about the neighbor you shot when you missed the intruder. If you are going to try to defend yourself I think it's impossible to calculate the value of good training.
[FONT=&]NRA Life Member,[/FONT] Pistol instructor[FONT=&] /[/FONT][FONT=&] RSO[/FONT]
Glock/M&P certified armorer
[FONT=&]“[/FONT]Safety is not something that you hold in your hands or
engage and disengage, it happens between your ears”
Col. Jeff Cooper

Watch people in traffic and compare to the idiots you mention at the range. People drive just short of the end of the hood....no idea what a signal is for and a mirror is for make up etc. Same at the range. No idea that a bullet goes well past intended targets. Look at the walls and the ceilings. Impacts everywhere. Even the floor.
Walking around with loaded guns, finger on the trigger. Makes me insane. Just like the driving I mentioned.

People are not attentive enough. No attention span. No accountability.

 

[churchmouse]

You will be criticized again for thinking training is the right thing if certain members notice the thread.
Its all about freedom and the 2AD not about safe and responsible and they will be the first to shout about the four rules.
Some will go as far to form a basis though internet research to prove training doesn’t matter.

As long as the criticism is civil......

 

[Turf Doctor]

What I've learned in training with Coach and BBIs is that I was not nearly as prepared as I thought I was and I imagine if your Niece were to get some serious training she will realize the same thing. A friend of mine said she would just take a couple of shots and the intruder would get the message and retreat. My response was, what about the neighbor you shot when you missed the intruder. If you are going to try to defend yourself I think it's impossible to calculate the value of good training.
NRA Life Member, Pistol instructor / RSO
Glock/M&P certified armorer
“Safety is not something that you hold in your hands or
engage and disengage, it happens between your ears”
Col. Jeff Cooper

How right you would be if only she didn't have the attitude that she knows better.

Ah, I have taken classes with Coach & BBI. I have learned each session I have more to learn. So, I keep goin back to learn more.

 

[churchmouse]

How right you would be if only she didn't have the attitude that she knows better.

Ah, I have taken classes with Coach & BBI. I have learned each session I have more to learn. So, I keep goin back to learn more.

I have taken a class with Coach and just eating lunch with BBI is enlightening as to mind set/readiness.
Old dog/new tricks. I find myself resisting new ideas at 1st. Then with repetition they become ingrained and replace older muscle memories. Repetition is the key. Wash rinse repeat. Ask for critic. Listen and readjust. Coach....it is working.

 

[ChrisK]

Glad to see this mentality becoming more and more predominate. Wasn't that many years ago that I was openly chastized right here on INGO for promoting training.

Good to see less and less folks "too smart" for training, on here anyway.

You are NEVER to smart for training!! Some of the best trainers in the world receive training from others. It keeps you sharp....

 

[NHT3]

What my training skills and knowledge have "bled" over into is that I'm more competent to make an informed and mindful split second decision if I am faced with a life threatening situation. I don't feel I'm overconfident or self-righteous but I am confident that training has improved my ability to defend myself and those that I love.
Quote from an unnamed Navy seal.. "Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard"
I don't understand how anyone can make any argument against competent firearms training.


Spot on CM, no accountability or personal responsibility. It makes me crazy to see this stuff and makes us both dinosaurs to even notice or concern ourselves with such trivial matters.
Concerning what Coach discussed, my experience is more limited than his but what he describes is exactly what I've encountered in the basic classes I've taught.

NRA Life Member,Pistol instructor / RSO
Glock/M&P certified armorer
[FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

" I've been shooting 50 years and don't need advice" 5 minutes later asking for a band-aid for a sliced thumb.. Should I continue?

Probably learned it from video games...

I'd suggest that's where a lot of the notion of "I know what I'm doing" when they don't comes from. Great Grandpappy shooting cup and saucer with a black powder single action teaches the next generation of the family and then so on. Not only do you have testicle pride (I'm a man, I know weapons because man) in the way, you've got family pride (Pappy taught me, and he was (a cook) in the (Union) Army so no I'm even considering Pappy was wrong...)

Then combine with the "I'll just..." tactics. They've imagined what an armed confrontation looks like, based primarily on pulp culture, and have developed a notion that "I'll just... and then insert whatever imaginary way they've got that wins every fight. Screw the gun in their ear. Fire and they'll run from the noise. They are "prepared" for exactly one kind of fight that needs to go exactly how it looks in their head...and even then they have no idea what post-action looks like, how decision making under survival stress affects them, etc. So, like last night, you get a guy who was robbed during a Craigslist style transaction and then shoots the car as the suspect is fleeing after the robbery is over....

Untrained people do prevail. Trained (and well practiced ) people simply prevail more often under more circumstances and step on their own crank via poor decision making less often.

 

[Thor]

They also take realtors sign which are very expensive for realtors out to the range to hold their targets.

Well, I do have one of those I use. Mostly because said relator left it in my yard for months after the house down the road it referenced had sold. I don't mind helping out the neighbors when they are trying to move, I do mind advertising for a realtor who is only causing me inconvenience by having to move that ******* sign once again while I mow. Their picture has been shot many times.

I choose not to advertise for people for free just because I bought a product there, or someone they are working for lives down the road. If you want your car dealership sticker on my vehicle you'd better at least give me free car washes. No free lunch...for anyone. It's why I can't understand people who pay for merchandise that is basically advertising and wear it / place it on their cars / whatever.

 

[Thor]

Probably learned it from video games...


Untrained people do get lucky. Trained (and well practiced ) people simply prevail more often under more circumstances and step on their own crank via poor decision making less often.

It's like they say in fighter pilot training. Everyone starts with a bag of luck and a bag of experience. At first the luck bag is full. If your luck bag gets emptied before your experience bag is full we'll be reading about you in the safety briefing.

 

[Fargo]

My opinion is that if Home Economics, Gym, Art, and Music can all be part of children's mandated education, I see no reason that basic firearms safety cannot...

 

[Ruger_Ronin]

It's like they say in fighter pilot training. Everyone starts with a bag of luck and a bag of experience. At first the luck bag is full. If your luck bag gets emptied before your experience bag is full we'll be reading about you in the safety briefing.

Never heard that before. Spot on analogy.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Kirk, sometimes I think you are spot on but this time I think you're 180 degrees off. I would be willing to bet if the training was free you couldn't drag most of these people into a class kicking and screaming.

That's OK, disagreement is good.

I disagree. What changes the world? What is upstream of politics? Right, culture.

Making training a tax credit (or above the line deduction) gives individuals an incentive to go to school. Gun school becomes the "cool thing" to do.

Look, if marketing/culture can sell crap guns--Hi Points, XDs, derringers, inter alia--we can use it to improve gun safety through training.

 

[NHT3]

That's OK, disagreement is good.

I disagree. What changes the world? What is upstream of politics? Right, culture.

Making training a tax credit (or above the line deduction) gives individuals an incentive to go to school. Gun school becomes the "cool thing" to do.

Look, if marketing/culture can sell crap guns--Hi Points, XDs, derringers, inter alia--we can use it to improve gun safety through training.

I had not looked at it from the perspective of "it's the cool thing to do" but in today's world that would probably encourage a lot of people to get involved. Training to improve your skills seems a waste of time but if it became cool that might be enough of a carrott to get people involved. People generally will take advantage of anything they perceive to be "free" and what could be better than cool and free. Even though some of us understand that nothing is free I can see how it would possibly work.

 

[Jackson]

I have offered to pay for several peoples' training fees. Only one has ever taken me up on it. In my experience, free is not enough of an incentive.

 

[Coach]

I have offered to pay for several peoples' training fees. Only one has ever taken me up on it. In my experience, free is not enough of an incentive.

Because money is not the real issue.