Untrained firearms owners

[churchmouse]

Because money is not the real issue.

Bingo

 

[NHT3]

Bingo

LOL My first thought was "not bingo, EGO". Thanks Coach, that was a bright light for me. For many it's not about cost or cool, it's about ego. One of the most destructive forces of nature. Wow, how could I have been so blind to miss that when I've tried to train around it so many times? And that is one piece of the puzzle you can't train around.
[FONT=&amp][/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]NRA Life Member,[/FONT] Pistol instructor[FONT=&quot] / RSO[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Aron Bright[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[2A_Tom]

In an LGS recently I was Flagged by a woman as she pulled her gun to see if it fit in an uncle mike's cordura holster. I didn't notice where she pulled it from but she pointed it right at me.

I said, "Woah, is that loaded?"

She said, "Yes, but it is on safe. Don't worry, I won't shoot you. I am trained. I am former military."

All the time waving it around pushing it in and out of the cheap holster.

I didn't want to argue so I left.

This is the same LGS where I was fanned with a loaded .357 Magnum revolver a couple of years ago.

 

[2A_Tom]

What my training skills and knowledge have "bled" over into is that I'm more competent to make an informed and mindful split second decision if I am faced with a life threatening situation. I don't feel I'm overconfident or self-righteous but I am confident that training has improved my ability to defend myself and those that I love.
Quote from an unnamed Navy seal.. "Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard"
I don't understand how anyone can make any argument against competent firearms training.


Spot on CM, no accountability or personal responsibility. It makes me crazy to see this stuff and makes us both dinosaurs to even notice or concern ourselves with such trivial matters.
Concerning what Coach discussed, my experience is more limited than his but what he describes is exactly what I've encountered in the basic classes I've taught.

NRA Life Member,Pistol instructor / RSO
Glock/M&P certified armorer
[FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT]

In the Army I tried to make this point many times. It is actually Army Doctrine. There were so many times that I saod "what you do in training is what you will do in combat." I could turn blue in the face and there were always those that never learned. I was a cold warior (place keeper) so they most likely didn't die in combat, but most likely those like them are the ones that do.

 

[Thor]

Ah, yes, the Cold War, the good war, holding back the Soviet hordes, fought from the banks of the Rhine with a glass of wine. We WON that war mister!

 

[Thor]

I am trained. I am former military."

That could mean almost anything. Based on the described gun handling it probably meant she was admin at HQ and fired a gun once in basic.

 

[Coach]

Ah, yes, the Cold War, the good war, holding back the Soviet hordes, fought from the banks of the Rhine with a glass of wine. We WON that war mister!

We have done worse. The stakes were as high in the Cold War and any other.

I would say the Soviets restrained themselves because they were not certain of victory. Thanks to Ronald Reagan, John Paul II and Margret Thatcher for taking the lead in front of formidable military.

 

[NHT3]

In an LGS recently I was Flagged by a woman as she pulled her gun to see if it fit in an uncle mike's cordura holster. I didn't notice where she pulled it from but she pointed it right at me.

I said, "Woah, is that loaded?"

She said, "Yes, but it is on safe. Don't worry, I won't shoot you. I am trained. I am former military."

All the time waving it around pushing it in and out of the cheap holster.

I didn't want to argue so I left.

This is the same LGS where I was fanned with a loaded .357 Magnum revolver a couple of years ago.

You were kinder to her than I would have been. If I'm not mistaken it's a felony in Indiana to point a loaded firearm at someone. Making her aware that she had just committed a felony might have enlightened her enough that she was a little more aware of where her muzzle was pointed in the future.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member,[/FONT] Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public[/FONT]

 

[Coach]

I have been thinking about this thread in my moments of reflection for a couple of days. I wonder how much of an adverse impact poor trainers and poor training classes have on the lack of appeal for training to many folks and particularly men. There are many trainers that are not really qualified and have nothing to offer and do a shabby job. Does this hurt the bottom line? How can it not?

I am home this evening from a private instruction session. The client had recently taken a class and felt he needed some further help. He contacted me and we met. Great progress was made in an hour. All of his demons were not killed but he was shown the path to killing them. He was so happy with the session he added a tip to the fee. (Need more like him) His ego was not a problem and we addressed the problems of a flinch and anticipation and got into trigger manipulation and the results on the target changed before his eyes. The folks in the class he had taken told him his problem but could not fix it. Those who take on the title of instructor should be able to address getting hits without the complication of a timer. It is not easy to do ever and sometimes it is very difficult.

Another example from a few years ago. I had a female student during a day of private instruction that had 32 hours of previous training. After two hours she could shoot much, much better than when she arrived. She wanted to know how that much progress was made in such a short time. I just smiled and said it is important to know what is important.

My point being that if a first impression of training is unimpressive that hurts the cause of training. So do your best to deliver a good product. (not pointed at anyone in particular but everyone in general)

There have been a lot of trainers some and go on this forum since 2008 when I started to hang around here. The free market works.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have been thinking about this thread in my moments of reflection for a couple of days. I wonder how much of an adverse impact poor trainers and poor training classes have on the lack of appeal for training to many folks and particularly men. There are many trainers that are not really qualified and have nothing to offer and do a shabby job. Does this hurt the bottom line? How can it not?

I taught a class where one of the students was an NRA instructor looking for info on what "real" looked like. That instructor shot the class cup and saucer...

That said, there are instructors who are teaching complete tripe, and thanks to good marketing and slick social media people eat it up. Think of how few bad AARs you see. Who wants to admit they wasted their time and money? Or even know what they were taught was BS?

Instructors suffer from the same ego issues students do. People who are great at fundamentals instructions may be teaching fantasy when they teach self-defense. Or parroting something they learned themselves, but don't really understand the context and end up not quite getting it right. Or guys with a great tactical background may be mediocre shots...or great riflemen trying to teach pistol, etc. And sometimes you get someone who's just a fraud.

When I want to learn fundamentals, I'll look for someone accomplished in competition or the upper echelons of real world fighting units. I'm interested from learning from people who excel in the areas they excel in. In some ways, it's like "The Gift of Fear". Great book when the author stays in his lane. Guns aren't his lane, and what he says about them is absurd...but folks who don't know what they don't know will accept his opinion because he's an expert in the other topics.

 

[bwframe]

...In some ways, it's like "The Gift of Fear". Great book when the author stays in his lane. Guns aren't his lane, and what he says about them is absurd...but folks who don't know what they don't know will accept his opinion because he's an expert in the other topics.

Dammit. I guess now I'm gonna have to finish that book. Or at least read until I'm good and pissed...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Dammit. I guess now I'm gonna have to finish that book. Or at least read until I'm good and pissed...

It's worth the read. He talks about how a woman confused her revolver for an inhaler and shot herself in his segment on how guns are more likely to be used in an accident in the home than a defense. He'd right, but anyone who's ever seen an asthma inhaler and seen a revolver know you can't confuse them. Even if you did and didn't realize you were sucking on a gun barrel, they aren't held the same way or activated the same way. That's a suicide dressed up with a non-suicide explanation. He'd rather go "guns are bad m kay" and use stupid scare tactics than actually address reducing gun accidents via proper handling and storage, which is never discussed.

 

[rhino]

I have been thinking about this thread in my moments of reflection for a couple of days. I wonder how much of an adverse impact poor trainers and poor training classes have on the lack of appeal for training to many folks and particularly men. There are many trainers that are not really qualified and have nothing to offer and do a shabby job. Does this hurt the bottom line? How can it not?

Too few understand and embrace that it doesn't matter what you know or can do if you can't communicate that information effectively with students. Teaching isn't inherently difficult, but doing it well is not easy, nor are most people who try adept at teaching. Lots of people have skills and ability, but few of them are good teachers. More of them could be good teachers if they put as much effort into learning how to teach as they did their gun-related skills, but often they either don't realize or refuse to believe that they need help. Along those lines, very few students will give them direct feedback that they're not good teachers. At best, they won't be repeat customers.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Too few understand and embrace that it doesn't matter what you know or can do if you can't communicate that information effectively with students. Teaching isn't inherently difficult, but doing it well is not easy, nor are most people who try adept at teaching. Lots of people have skills and ability, but few of them are good teachers. More of them could be good teachers if they put as much effort into learning how to teach as they did their gun-related skills, but often they either don't realize or refuse to believe that they need help. Along those lines, very few students will give them direct feedback that they're not good teachers. At best, they won't be repeat customers.

Well said Rhino. I've heard my son say the same thing (different subject, same principle) concerning people who can teach and communicate, but don't understand the material; and people who understand the material but can't communicate.

 

[halfmileharry]

I recently started working at range that has an RSO stationed on the range. I've spent time there and in other ranges but never hours at a stretch as an RSO. After observing people for several hours there I realized an extremely small percentage of people have even basic knowledge of their own firearms. How in the world do you convince people, training is essential, firearms being inherently dangerous in the hands of untrained people?

[FONT="]NRA Life Member,[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#999999][FONT=Tahoma] Pistol instructor[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=red][FONT="] /[/FONT][FONT="] RSO[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#339966][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Tahoma]Glock/M&P certified armorer[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#999999][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]“[/FONT]Safety is not something that you hold in your hands, it happens between your ears”
Col. Jeff Cooper

Stupidity is a God Given right and IF I'm not mistaken it's a guaranteed right under our constitution as well.
In a perfect world we couldn't gripe about a damned thing. Eh?

 

[ATM]

Stupidity is a God Given right and IF I'm not mistaken it's a guaranteed right under our constitution as well...

That's why the question was posed how do we convince people training is essential (as opposed to the common suggestion of mandating training as a requisite to keeping and bearing arms).

We convince via persuasion and example.

 

[Coach]

That's why the question was posed how do we convince people training is essential (as opposed to the common suggestion of mandating training as a requisite to keeping and bearing arms).

We convince via persuasion and example.

You are correct. Mandated training will not increase the education going on very much if at all.

 

[NHT3]

You are correct. Mandated training will not increase the education going on very much if at all.

Reminds me of the political football the training for the recruiters in Indiana became. If I'm not mistaken Defensive pistol 1 and 2 came in being in response to a need to properly train the recruiters, at least that was Coach's thought. When the "mandators" got involved it was deemed safe and politically correct to give them the NRA basic pistol course. Nothing wrong with the NRA course but I can't see any correlation between basic nomenclature, safe handling vs drawing and getting rounds on a target. In almost every case the people that have the authority to mandate don't have the foggiest idea what the mandate should be.
To Rhino's point, being well versed on a subject and having the ability to convey that knowledge IS two entirely different things. Grand master shooter doesn't necessarily mean Grand master trainer.
Finding a way to make training the "cool" thing to do is probably the best way to get most of the untrained in a classroom. OR getting people to leave their ego at the door when the try to learn something new. I'm not sure of the solution.
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member,[/FONT] Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”
[/FONT][FONT=&amp] Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[2A_Tom]

One thing we can do is beat the drum here on INGO every time and inevery thread we can.

I am one of those "military" trained guys. I know the ins and outs of guns. I an a student of Colonel Coopers teaching. I have studied on my own for years and have learned much on INGO. One thing I had pounded into my head here is the need for furthur training.

There are alot of trainers here and I have plans to use several of them. Being in NWI it is difficult to get to mid state to take advantage of these guys, biu I have and will continue to.

Coach and BBI are great educators, I intend to go to some course or two with Adaptive Consulting and Training, I will eventually take Indiana carry law from Tactical Firearms Training and a medical course from (correct me if I am wrong) Cav Medic.

That is not an all inclusive list but it is a start.

But, I would not have developed this attitude with out INGO and developing a respect for the community. This would include the positive feed back for the Site supporting ADVERTISERS I have mentioned.

 

[turnandshoot4]

One thing we can do is beat the drum here on INGO every time and inevery thread we can.

I am one of those "military" trained guys. I know the ins and outs of guns. I an a student of Colonel Coopers teaching. I have studied on my own for years and have learned much on INGO. One thing I had pounded into my head here is the need for furthur training.

There are alot of trainers here and I have plans to use several of them. Being in NWI it is difficult to get to mid state to take advantage of these guys, biu I have and will continue to.

Coach and BBI are great educators, I intend to go to some course or two with Adaptive Consulting and Training, I will eventually take Indiana carry law from Tactical Firearms Training and a medical course from (correct me if I am wrong) Cav Medic.

That is not an all inclusive list but it is a start.

But, I would not have developed this attitude with out INGO and developing a respect for the community. This would include the positive feed back for the Site supporting ADVERTISERS I have mentioned.

You do have training in NWI from Infinity Solutions. Recently a Valpo firefighter put on a "stop the bleed" class and had a ton of IS alumni there. Lots of options in NWI as well.


The interesting thing is the tactics and training forum is 29 times smaller in posts than the break room.