Untrained firearms owners

[2A_Tom]

2 [SUP]from [/SUP]NWI Glad you are here. Stick around and make some friends.

As an owner of an indoor range in NE Fl, I certainly see all ends of the spectrum, from the very experienced to the absolutely incompetent. We keep RSOs on staff for the safety of all in the range, which provides an added comfort level. What frightens me more than any behavior I see on the range however, and what I haven't seen discussed here, is the ease with which concealed carry permits are issued to virtually anyone who can pass the background check. Can't speak for other states, but in Florida, there is essentially zero firearms competency which must be exhibited to obtain the license. As we have the 'luxury' of having a range in house, we require our students to fire 25-50 rounds at a target and demonstrate at least the bare minimum of competency with a weapon. But there are many gun stores conducting CWL classes that do not have a range and their 'firearms proficiency' demonstration consists literally of capping off 2 .22LR rounds into a bullet catch - period. This is appalling to me not as a range owner, but as a citizen going out in public. If you want to keep a firearm in your home for personal protection and choose not to make yourself proficient in the use of that firearm, the risk is essentially limited to you, your family members and potentially a neighbor. But when you choose to strap on that gun and take it out in public, now you're a potential safety threat to all of the innocent people around you. If you have to use your firearm for personal protection at a shopping mall or other significantly populated venue, now the risk of unintended collateral damage jumps up exponentially. If the only 'training' you've received is to pump 2 rounds at pt blank range into a bullet catch, then you have no business packing heat in public. I'm sure I'm going to get some pushback from the 'constitutional carry' folks, but I believe there should be significantly more training required to obtain a concealed carry permit.

Well, you wouldn't like Indiana. INGO is composed of mostly strict 2A adherants and supporters.

Indiana Constitution Article 1 Section 32. The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State.

We are currently working on Indiana Constitutional Carry.

 

[actaeon277]

As an owner of an indoor range in NE Fl, I certainly see all ends of the spectrum, from the very experienced to the absolutely incompetent. We keep RSOs on staff for the safety of all in the range, which provides an added comfort level. What frightens me more than any behavior I see on the range however, and what I haven't seen discussed here, is the ease with which concealed carry permits are issued to virtually anyone who can pass the background check. Can't speak for other states, but in Florida, there is essentially zero firearms competency which must be exhibited to obtain the license. As we have the 'luxury' of having a range in house, we require our students to fire 25-50 rounds at a target and demonstrate at least the bare minimum of competency with a weapon. But there are many gun stores conducting CWL classes that do not have a range and their 'firearms proficiency' demonstration consists literally of capping off 2 .22LR rounds into a bullet catch - period. This is appalling to me not as a range owner, but as a citizen going out in public. If you want to keep a firearm in your home for personal protection and choose not to make yourself proficient in the use of that firearm, the risk is essentially limited to you, your family members and potentially a neighbor. But when you choose to strap on that gun and take it out in public, now you're a potential safety threat to all of the innocent people around you. If you have to use your firearm for personal protection at a shopping mall or other significantly populated venue, now the risk of unintended collateral damage jumps up exponentially. If the only 'training' you've received is to pump 2 rounds at pt blank range into a bullet catch, then you have no business packing heat in public. I'm sure I'm going to get some pushback from the 'constitutional carry' folks, but I believe there should be significantly more training required to obtain a concealed carry permit.

I'm sure the woman I know that carried a gun to keep her ex from killing her would be happy to know your opinion on training.
She was taught by a friend, and put some downrange one day.
And yet, managed not to kill bystanders while going about her business.
Why should she have to wait for permission from the government to protect herself?

 

[actaeon277]

I guess I should also point out, there is no difference in accidental deaths due to firearms in states that require training, and those that don't.

 

[2A_Tom]

I am all for mandatory training. Eddie the Eagle starting in Kindergarten. Hands on with blue guns (rifle and pistol) in grade school. One on one hands on .22s (rifle and pistol) in junior high. Continued practice with .22s in high school with intra mural, inter scolastic, community and state competition.

My grand kids

• Haillie, 14 learned at home, joined 4H and scored 100% her first time skeet shooting.
• Robbie, 13 learned at home, I took him to the range last week and didn't have to say one word about safety
• Livvy, 9 learned at home, all three hunt WITH mom and dad.
• Arrow, 3 has been watching Eddie the Eagle since about 1.
• Knox, 9 months will do the same.

Mandatory training would be grate.

 

[scubatiger]

I'm sure the woman I know that carried a gun to keep her ex from killing her would be happy to know your opinion on training.
She was taught by a friend, and put some downrange one day.
And yet, managed not to kill bystanders while going about her business.
Why should she have to wait for permission from the government to protect herself?

So it sounds like she didn't ever shoot anybody - just carried it as a deterrent, at least thusfar. Glad she's safe and I hope she takes it upon herself to train and practice regularly. I wish everyone who carries a gun would take the responsibility seriously and take it upon themselves to properly train and prepare. The problem is - and I see it first hand every day - there are countless individuals who have their CWLs who can barely tell you which end of a gun is dangerous. I see people constantly that can't safely load/unload their own gun, who don't have clue how to safely clear a jam and have horrible muzzle discipline. So yeah, it does scare me to know that these folks are locked and loaded in public. And I don't think anyone can logically or reasonably argue against the need for proper training. The only point of contention is whether that training is required by law. If everyone who owned and carried a gun would take that responsibility upon themselves, then great - no need for mandated training. But the reality is they won't and you end up with throngs of abjectly unqualified people carrying guns. As many folks in this thread have pointed out, just go to any range on a regular basis and witness all of the unsafe habits. I'm all for a well-armed citizenry, but folks need to do it right and take it seriously. As I said, I knew there would be pushback from the CC folks, but I respectfully disagree.

 

[actaeon277]

So it sounds like she didn't ever shoot anybody - just carried it as a deterrent, at least thusfar. Glad she's safe and I hope she takes it upon herself to train and practice regularly. I wish everyone who carries a gun would take the responsibility seriously and take it upon themselves to properly train and prepare. The problem is - and I see it first hand every day - there are countless individuals who have their CWLs who can barely tell you which end of a gun is dangerous. I see people constantly that can't safely load/unload their own gun, who don't have clue how to safely clear a jam and have horrible muzzle discipline. So yeah, it does scare me to know that these folks are locked and loaded in public. And I don't think anyone can logically or reasonably argue against the need for proper training. The only point of contention is whether that training is required by law. If everyone who owned and carried a gun would take that responsibility upon themselves, then great - no need for mandated training. But the reality is they won't and you end up with throngs of abjectly unqualified people carrying guns. As many folks in this thread have pointed out, just go to any range on a regular basis and witness all of the unsafe habits. I'm all for a well-armed citizenry, but folks need to do it right and take it seriously. As I said, I knew there would be pushback from the CC folks, but I respectfully disagree.

No. She didn't "just carry it". She did have to draw it, but she didn't shoot.
And as for seeing dumb asses, as I said before, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN ACCIDENTAL SHOOTING BETWEEN STATES THAT REQUIRE AND DON'T REQUIRE TRAINING.

People that will get training, will get it.
Those that don't will ignore the class.

 

[actaeon277]

Maybe we should take an example from Washington DC, which REQUIRED training.
They handed out papers with the list of APPROVED classes. Half of which no longer existed.
Also, you had to LEAVE the city for the shooting part, and for most of the classes.
Making it difficult for lower income people to get the training.

 

[actaeon277]

So it sounds like she didn't ever shoot anybody - just carried it as a deterrent, at least thusfar. Glad she's safe and I hope she takes it upon herself to train and practice regularly. I wish everyone who carries a gun would take the responsibility seriously and take it upon themselves to properly train and prepare. The problem is - and I see it first hand every day - there are countless individuals who have their CWLs who can barely tell you which end of a gun is dangerous. I see people constantly that can't safely load/unload their own gun, who don't have clue how to safely clear a jam and have horrible muzzle discipline. So yeah, it does scare me to know that these folks are locked and loaded in public. And I don't think anyone can logically or reasonably argue against the need for proper training. The only point of contention is whether that training is required by law. If everyone who owned and carried a gun would take that responsibility upon themselves, then great - no need for mandated training. But the reality is they won't and you end up with throngs of abjectly unqualified people carrying guns. As many folks in this thread have pointed out, just go to any range on a regular basis and witness all of the unsafe habits. I'm all for a well-armed citizenry, but folks need to do it right and take it seriously. As I said, I knew there would be pushback from the CC folks, but I respectfully disagree.

Been to ranges in many states. Found dumb assses on them also. Yet many were "required training" states.

 

[actaeon277]

I really loved it when I heard about required training, that had questions about a blunderbuss in the test.
Cause you know, knowledge of blunderbusses are absolutely necessary while carrying a pistol.

 

[actaeon277]

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2017/09/09/training-requirements-declared-struck-down/

 

[JBLee]

And several of them drove to the range while talking and texting in a 2 ton projectile! It's a dangerous world out there and getting more so all the time. May we live in interesting times.

 

[2A_Tom]

This is getting interesting.

The Florida Constitution is interesting.

Article 1 Section 8

[FONT=&quot]SECTION 8. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Right to bear arms.—[/FONT][FONT=&quot](a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.
(b) There shall be a mandatory period of three days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and delivery at retail of any handgun. For the purposes of this section, “purchase” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer, and “handgun” means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. Holders of a concealed weapon permit as prescribed in Florida law shall not be subject to the provisions of this paragraph.
(c) The legislature shall enact legislation implementing subsection (b) of this section, effective no later than December 31, 1991, which shall provide that anyone violating the provisions of subsection (b) shall be guilty of a felony.
(d) This restriction shall not apply to a trade in of another handgun.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]History.—Am. C.S. for S.J.R. 43, 1989; adopted 1990.[/FONT]

 

[actaeon277]

And several of them drove to the range while talking and texting in a 2 ton projectile! It's a dangerous world out there and getting more so all the time. May we live in interesting times.

projectiles which kill more people. And yet many states do not require training.

 

[actaeon277]

And before someone get's the wrong idea, I am NOT AGAINST TRAINING.
I am for it.

I am against nanny government setting up what you need to learn, and giving you permission to defend yourself.

 

[2A_Tom]

projectiles which kill more people. And yet many states do not require training.

Are there States that actually require formal drivers training?

 

[actaeon277]

Are there States that actually require formal drivers training?

I don't know. Which is why I didn't state that.

 

[2A_Tom]

In a perfect world every child would learn gun safety in the home. Gun safety is most important, learning how to safely handle and use a firearm. We as responsible gun owners can and should teach new gun owners in our living room and take them to the range.

 

[2A_Tom]

I don't know. Which is why I didn't state that.

I wasn't questioning you, just asking. I will attempt flying jump goolefu.

 

[2A_Tom]

Pre 18 - 16 states require Drivers Ed.
Post 18 - 11 states require permits but only Florida, Lousiana, Maryland, New Mexico, New York and Texas require forman DE.

Auto deaths per 100,000 in States that require DE even over 18.

• Florida - 14.5
• Lousiana - 15.5
• Maryland - 8.5
• New Mexico - 14.3
• New York - 5.7
• Texas - 12.8

Looking at http://leg.wa.gov/JTC/Documents/Studies/Driver Education_Beth/SummaryStateTable.pdf

and Fatality Facts

It is apearant that some states that require DE have high auto mortality rates and some are low. Some states that have no DE or optional DE have high auto mortality rates and some are low.

The lowest is DC at 3.4 and has, No driver’s education requirements. Teens under 18 must show that they have40 hours behind the wheel, with 10 of those hours at night.

The highest is Mississippi at 22.6 and, Driver’s education is not required to get a driver’s license. However, teens mayobtain a learners permit at age 14 that exclusively allows them to drive with aninstructor

 

[STFU]

Brings to mind the phrase, you can't polish a T**d

Well actually....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI
;-)