Untrained firearms owners

[bwframe]

As an owner of an indoor range in NE Fl, I certainly see all ends of the spectrum, from the very experienced to the absolutely incompetent. We keep RSOs on staff for the safety of all in the range, which provides an added comfort level. What frightens me more than any behavior I see on the range however, and what I haven't seen discussed here, is the ease with which concealed carry permits are issued to virtually anyone who can pass the background check. Can't speak for other states, but in Florida, there is essentially zero firearms competency which must be exhibited to obtain the license. As we have the 'luxury' of having a range in house, we require our students to fire 25-50 rounds at a target and demonstrate at least the bare minimum of competency with a weapon. But there are many gun stores conducting CWL classes that do not have a range and their 'firearms proficiency' demonstration consists literally of capping off 2 .22LR rounds into a bullet catch - period. This is appalling to me not as a range owner, but as a citizen going out in public. If you want to keep a firearm in your home for personal protection and choose not to make yourself proficient in the use of that firearm, the risk is essentially limited to you, your family members and potentially a neighbor. But when you choose to strap on that gun and take it out in public, now you're a potential safety threat to all of the innocent people around you. If you have to use your firearm for personal protection at a shopping mall or other significantly populated venue, now the risk of unintended collateral damage jumps up exponentially. If the only 'training' you've received is to pump 2 rounds at pt blank range into a bullet catch, then you have no business packing heat in public. I'm sure I'm going to get some pushback from the 'constitutional carry' folks, but I believe there should be significantly more training required to obtain a concealed carry permit.

That's going too far. Every sole that buys a first gun is not irresponsible.

I am certainly a huge proponent for carriers seeking training. That said, governments stipulating and regulating training is never a good thing.

 

[natdscott]

Uh.

Driver's License...Pilot License...License to sell Insurance...License for Confined Space Entry...License to practice medicine...License to handle HAZMAT...


I'd say governmental regulations and stipulations regarding training can indeed be a VERY good thing.

-Nate

 

[bwframe]

I cannot speak to the others mentioned, but government follow up on driver's and medical licenses has been poor at best.

 

[Ark]

Uh.

Driver's License...Pilot License...License to sell Insurance...License for Confined Space Entry...License to practice medicine...License to handle HAZMAT...


I'd say governmental regulations and stipulations regarding training can indeed be a VERY good thing.

-Nate

Some professional licensing drifts into naked revenue-producing territory. But, I'm not a huge fan of Indiana's "lifetime carry permit for filling out an application online" system. At least send people a damn flier on gun safety and self defense law or something. I had to take a free two-day class to get a hunting license, but somehow I can carry a handgun in Walmart with, theoretically, zero education or competence whatsoever.

The application process could include a video lecture that prevents you from proceeding to payment until you've watched it. Educational materials could be sent in the mail. There is so much else that could be done besides mandating in-person training that costs $800, has 15 slots, and happens twice a year.

 

[fineguitarman]

The last time I was at the Camp Atterbury range a few years back I experience several young uneducated idiots sweeping, and clearing jams while pointing right at their neighbor - Myself and others. I had a talk with them instantly, but realized it was best to pack up because they were pretty busy keeping themselves upright enough to get off a shot. I packed up and went to the shotgun field. I understand that they now have range officers present who take care of these issues quickly. I belong to Marion County Fish and Wildlife range, and I went through their training for range behavior. It was a great comfort to me that it was mandatory, I have never had a problem at that range. Even though I had been through similar training before, I really appreciated knowing that EVERYONE that was there had to go through the same, and that all members with guests were responsible for their guests behaving properly.

 

[natdscott]

I cannot speak to the others mentioned, but government follow up on driver's and medical licenses has been poor at best.

That's government.

But it doesn't mean that the mandated training to pass the exams to GET those certifications is worthless or detrimental, nor was the legislation of such.

Some professional licensing drifts into naked revenue-producing territory.

Truth.

-Nate

 

[chemteach]

Uh.

Driver's License...Pilot License...License to sell Insurance...License for Confined Space Entry...License to practice medicine...License to handle HAZMAT...


I'd say governmental regulations and stipulations regarding training can indeed be a VERY good thing.

-Nate

Absolutely, training is a good thing. The only issue I have with your post is that none of the licenses you listed are protected under the US Constitution as an "inalienable right". I believe a solution to the safety problem is education. I read many posts on INGO and I look at how many of you list very impressive credentials relating to your accomplishments with many types of firearms in many types of circumstances. One suggestion I might make is for those of you with the expertise and experience to make the time to find a way to volunteer or offer some service to your little corner of the state and help make it safer for all shooters, but especially those who are new to this sport. One example is the NWI INGO's annual family shoot at Winamac - lots of kids, new shooters, and it's safe, fun, free and friendly. As far as more government regulations and stipulations; My ability to protect myself should not be reliant upon the whim of any person other than myself, and certainly not elected or appointed government officials. Just my two cents (maybe I pushed it to a whole nickel's worth).

 

[ralphb72]

The answer is simple!

The answer is simple, and I can't believe no one has suggested it yet. Mandatory military training and 2 years service after training. After that, at least some mandatory reserve obligation time like 8 years.

 

[JettaKnight]

Uh.

Driver's License...Pilot License...License to sell Insurance...License for Confined Space Entry...License to practice medicine...License to handle HAZMAT...


I'd say governmental regulations and stipulations regarding training can indeed be a VERY good thing.

-Nate

And license to braid hair, that's a good thing too?


- JK, who just wants to stir the pot.

 

[natdscott]

And license to braid hair, that's a good thing too?


- JK, who just wants to stir the pot.

...which is why:

Some professional licensing drifts into naked revenue-producing territory.

Truth.

-Nate

 

[natdscott]

The answer is simple, and I can't believe no one has suggested it yet. Mandatory military training and 2 years service after training. After that, at least some mandatory reserve obligation time like 8 years.

What is your proposal for 4-F, etc.?

They just don't have that inalienable right anymore because they didn't do the military training (that they were determined unfit to undertake)?

-Nate

 

[Thor]

The answer is simple, and I can't believe no one has suggested it yet. Mandatory military training and 2 years service after training. After that, at least some mandatory reserve obligation time like 8 years.

Better be ready for a REALLY big increase in the Defense Budget...the last thing our military needs to do is spread around current funding to basically baby sit a bunch of civilians for two years who will never be of any value in modern combat. You could just put them through basic and stick them in the inactive reserves but even that would come with a huge price tag.

 

[Thor]

What is your proposal for 4-F, etc.?-Nate

Waiver.

 

[1nderbeard]

Most of the time guns are cheaper, or about the same price, as training. Easier to buy a new gun than to buy training. You could make the same observation about a gun safe. It's easier, and more fun, to buy another firearm that to properly store your old firearms.

 

[Tactically Fat]

The answer is simple, and I can't believe no one has suggested it yet. Mandatory military training and 2 years service after training. After that, at least some mandatory reserve obligation time like 8 years.

No. This is a "free country".

I'll go a step further than the OP. If you carry a gun and have not sought out defensive handgun training, not only are you untrained, you are being blatantly irresponsible and negligent.

 

[natdscott]

If you carry a gun and have not sought out defensive handgun training, not only are you untrained, you are being blatantly irresponsible and negligent.

You don't know some of the shooters I know.

That statement is broad enough that it paints some areas of untruth.

-Nate

 

[halfmileharry]

No. This is a "free country".

I'll go a step further than the OP. If you carry a gun and have not sought out defensive handgun training, not only are you untrained, you are being blatantly irresponsible and negligent.

TF, I'm usually with you but I think you put too much in the grocery cart this time.
I've got nothing against Proper training for general purposes but it's not the end all to the problems one may encounter.
There's an unlimited number of situations one may run into and it's impossible to train for all of them.
Blatantly irresponsible and negligent? I just can't go along with this.
Common sense and keeping one's head is as important as anything. Training can help with this.

 

[NHT3]

Don't want to kick sand in anyone's face but Military training is not the answer. The guys that have been to the sandbox may have spent some time behind a pistol but most people in all of the branches don't get handgun training, period. I can go along with irresponsible because without any training you are a danger to yourself as well as anyone you are in contact with. Forcing people to be responsible is not possible but I'll keep beating the training drum because it's what I can do to encourage people to train.
I've spent a number of hours in a range recently as the RSO and I knew it was bad but had no idea of the lack of knowledge most people demonstrate with firearms. I'm talking about minimum of 75% of the people I'm seeing are frighteningly uninformed. I'm planning a thread discussing this issue and I think many of you will be shocked and amused by what you will hear.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member,[/FONT] Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT]

 

[ralphb72]

No waivers, training for everyone. Those who just can't do the physical part of the training still get some training including firearms, then 2 years civilian service of some type. Yes, I agree I didn't get a lot of pistol training in the Army, but that was their mistake. Every soldier should have a long gun and at least one pistol on them and have training for both. I did run the .45 range a couple times but that really didn't train me in pistol use.

No ones rights are taken away because everyone gets training.

My youngest two have done shooting sports in 4H, Boy Scouts, Jr. NRA, and with me but still don't know it all. I spent 12 years in the Army but still am willing to learn from ANYONE.

Yes, I am obviously FOR higher defense spending BUT I also think we should either pull out of some of the places we are deployed or make the pay for their own defense, or both.

 

[henry0reilly]

I used to be the resident range officer at a private club. One day I watched a man chamber a round in a Tokarov, holster it, and put it in the trunk of his car. He thought it was like a 1911 and safe to carry that way.

One of the old timers told me about a guy shooting a Mosin Nagant. He had to knock the case out with a cleaning rod after every shot. He was shooting .308 ammo because "it fits the chamber"