Why the disdain for the French military?

[abnk]

I did not want to hijack the thread that reminded me of this, but I never understood American contempt toward the French military.

A few points to consider:

1. From Carolingian to Napoleonic rule France was a superpower.
2. They helped us in the Revolutionary War.
3. In the First World War, the French did no worse than the British. By the time we joined the fight, a whole generation of English and Frenchmen had been wiped out. Germans were running out of young men as well. In addition, the Germans as a nation were exhausted of the conflict. We had it easy.
4. Second World War, there was no single military that could have contained the Wehrmacht. The French had the misfortune of being the juiciest target on the border.
5. In Vietnam, they lost because of their politicians, same as we did. They were outmanned, outgunned, and did not terrorize the populace as the Viet Minh did. They were fighting with Second World War equipment when the Viet Minh were using the latest Soviet and Chinese equipment and American equipment captured in Korea. The French Air Force had less planes in the entire theater than Americans used in one single raid on the Ho Chi Min trail. There are plenty accounts of French heroism that by our standards who be deserving of the MOH.
6. Survivors of Dien Bien Phu would look at the Bataan Death March as a promenade (couldn't resist not using a French word).

So, why the disdain?

 

[edsinger]

Although you make excellent points, I would just answer this with "because they are French".

This is really a modern disdain, from after WWII I would think and it could have started with De Gaul and his BS and dropping out of NATO...

Either way, they are French, and not the best ally of the US the last 50 years.

I dislike them most for making our planes bypass France and fly all the way around from the UK to bomb Libya in 1986.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Although you make excellent points, I would just answer this with "because they are French".

This is really a modern disdain, from after WWII I would think and it could have started with De Gaul and his BS and dropping out of NATO...

Either way, they are French, and not the best ally of the US the last 50 years.

I dislike them most for making our planes bypass France and fly all the way around from the UK to bomb Libya in 1986.

And the French weren't "helping us out" during the Revolution. They had their own motives. We just provided an opportunity for them.

 

[Sylvain]

Although you make excellent points, I would just answer this with "because they are French".

This is really a modern disdain, from after WWII I would think and it could have started with De Gaul and his BS and dropping out of NATO...

Either way, they are French, and not the best ally of the US the last 50 years.

I dislike them most for making our planes bypass France and fly all the way around from the UK to bomb Libya in 1986.

His BS?
De Gaulle did the good thing by dropping out of NATO.
He wanted France to be protected by its own forces and not only by NATO.He created the french nuclear programm who made France the third nuclear power in the world (after the US and Russia).

 

[Kutnupe14]

His BS?
De Gaulle did the good thing by dropping out of NATO.
He wanted France to be protected by its own forces and not only by NATO.He created the french nuclear programm who made France the third nuclear power in the world (after the US and Russia).

I'd agree if he had dropped out of the UN too... but they didnt. Nato makes way more sense to be a member of when compared to the UN.

 

[22lr]

Because during WWII the French allowed themselves to be annihilated through criminal neglect of military planning. They might have been defeated anyways, but they completely neglected the Ardennes forest even though their own military planners run numerous scenarios all saying the Germans could get lots of heavy armor through the forest. There own war games ran scenarios putting heavy armor through the forest, and defeating the red force every time. Then once the Germans attacked the French Generals didn't even maneuver forces to counter the advance once they knew it was happening. Germany attacked on June 5, on June 14 Paris was captured, by June 22 France had signed a surrender. They lasted 17 whole days. I know that isn't the fault of the individual soldier, but if I was a French civilians I would have demanded the heads of every single General.

The French have almost always been the leaders of military small arm technology, but they failed to utilize their state of the art weaponry and as a result they were defeated quite easily. They don't deserve all the negative rap, but the French generals have historically been as inept as they come. They arguable had the best tanks, rifles, and submachine guns at the wars start, but they only had a few and they didn't issue them on a wide scale. Again, nothing against the soldiers who had no control over this, but the Generals failed to utilize any of this to their advantage.

Also it is very telling when the Allies didn't even tell the Free French army that they were invading at Normandy until the day of.

Edit: I guess my problem is that you cant take a country seriously if they surrender in 17 days. I mean come on, 17 days is kinda sad.

 

[Miller Tyme]

 

[Kutnupe14]

Because during WWII the French allowed themselves to be annihilated through criminal neglect of military planning. They might have been defeated anyways, but they completely neglected the Ardennes forest even though their own military planners run numerous scenarios all saying the Germans could get lots of heavy armor through the forest. There own war games ran scenarios putting heavy armor through the forest, and defeating the red force every time. Then once the Germans attacked the French Generals didn't even maneuver forces to counter the advance once they knew it was happening. Germany declared war on June 10, on June 14 Paris was captured, by June 22 France had signed a surrender. They lasted 12 whole days. I know that isn't the fault of the individual soldier, but if I was a French civilians I would have demanded the heads of every single General.

The French have almost always been the leaders of military small arm technology, but they failed to utilize their state of the art weaponry and as a result they were defeated quite easily. They don't deserve all the negative rap, but the French generals have historically been as inept as they come. They arguable had the best tanks, rifles, and submachine guns at the wars start, but they only had a few and they didn't issue them on a wide scale. Again, nothing against the soldiers who had no control over this, but the Generals failed to utilize any of this to their advantage.

Also it is very telling when the Allies didn't even tell the Free French army that they were invading at Normandy until the day of.

Great post... I'm still trying to figure out how they didnt think that Rommel would avoid the Maginot Line by taking a detour through Belgium.

 

[Sylvain]

I think most of that comes from the fact that many americans (the ones who talk about it anyway) dont know anything about french history and the common history bewteen France and the USA.

France and the USA fought together more wars than any other countries and that makes France the oldest and strongest ally of the USA.

Just to name a few:

The American Revolution.
WWI
WWII
The first war in Irak (1991)
Afghanistan (since 2001)

 

[Bapak2ja]

Never mind.

 

[Sylvain]

Great post... I'm still trying to figure out how they didnt think that Rommel would avoid the Maginot Line by taking a detour through Belgium.

The answer to that is well known.Belgium was neutral at this point and France thought that Germany would respect the rules of war and not invade a neutral country.
That's also the reason why France couldnt build the Maginot Line along the belgium border.

 

[22lr]

Great post... I'm still trying to figure out how they didnt think that Rommel would avoid the Maginot Line by taking a detour through Belgium.

History shows us they did know, there was a great documentary that came out not to long ago and they laid out a crap load of evidence that the generals just refused to listen to any action that did not involve more fortifications on the infamous Maginot Line. It wasnt oversight, it was as close to intentional neglect as you can get.

Also I had that date wrong, they attacked June 5 so in reality they lasted 17 days. Still kinda pathetic that a sovereign nation cant last more than 17 days even when they had the best combat equipment of the time.

 

[rockhopper46038]

Because they build their tanks with only 1 forward gear but 7 reverse gears!

(This is tongue -in -cheek of course, but I admit to a bit of disdain for the policies of the French government, including those involving military matters, much as many of the European societies that verge on Socialism express disdain for the actions of ours.)

 

[22lr]

I should add that I also hold England in very very low regard considering WWII military tactics. Their stupidity cost America a lot of fine soldiers. But that is a different debate.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I should add that I also hold England in very very low regard considering WWII military tactics. Their stupidity cost America a lot of fine soldiers. But that is a different debate.

They cost themselves quite a few too. But to be fair, the Germans "changed the game."

 

[Rob377]

I stayed a week at a French Military base just outside of Versailles. It was part of a training trip in which we went to the site of the Battle of Belleau Wood. We were told it was were they did their "boot camp." From what I saw, it consisted of walking around in fancy blue track suits, smoking cigarettes, and drinking beer at the pub on base.

They were fun to hang out with, if nothing else.

 

[ihateiraq]

I stayed a week at a French Military base just outside of Versailles. It was part of a training trip in which we went to the site of the Battle of Belleau Wood. We were told it was were they did their "boot camp." From what I saw, it consisted of walking around in fancy blue track suits, smoking cigarettes, and drinking beer at the pub on base.

They were fun to hang out with, if nothing else.

it doesnt look like this guy has spent too much time in fancy track suits.

i dont have any beef w/ the french miltary. ive never worked with them. i dont much care for france itself though.

 

[abnk]

I guess my problem is that you cant take a country seriously if they surrender in 17 days. I mean come on, 17 days is kinda sad.

Name one central European country that would have done better against the Wehrmacht at that time.

 

[abnk]

I stayed a week at a French Military base just outside of Versailles. It was part of a training trip in which we went to the site of the Battle of Belleau Wood. We were told it was were they did their "boot camp." From what I saw, it consisted of walking around in fancy blue track suits, smoking cigarettes, and drinking beer at the pub on base.

They were fun to hang out with, if nothing else.

We went to the main French camp in Kosovo for one day, ten years ago. They served us little coffee cups in shiny trays. It was nice, but a very different culture.

 

[Sylvain]

Name one central European country that would have done better against the Wehrmacht at that time.

You also have to understand the political and historical situation at this time.After the end of WWI in 1918 the french people wanted to rebuild their country and were planning on peace, they had four years of war and didnt wanted to plan a future war.
The french government couldnt possibly think about building a strong army when the whole country needed to be rebuilt.
On the other hand the germans started planning a new war just after WWI and rebuilt their military because they wanted revenge.
Bewteen the end of WWI and the begining of WWII nobody knew a new war was ahead but the germans who planned for it.