Winchester's new .350 Legend for the AR-15

[two70]

Yeah, I don't remember where I read that at. When I first heard about it, there was a lot of chatter about it in a few other forums. AR15.com was one the forums that was popping up in my search. So I repeated what I read on the there.

Now actually thinking about it, Winchester doesn't make AR's but they do sell bolt actions. So it makes sense.

But I dont think it will be too long before it's available in some sort of AR.

The thing nearly everyone is missing is that the .350 Legend was announced by Winchester Ammunition which while under the same overall umbrella, is a different company than Winchester Repeating Arms. Winchester Repeating Arms will make an XPR in .350 Legend(I would bet we will see a Browning in this chambering soon as well since they are also under the same umbrella) but Winchester Ammo is promoting the round precisely because it will be opened up to other firearms manufacturers(read AR manufacturers) so they can sell plenty ammo.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Valid points. But, if I may make an analogy, there are times you need an axe, and times you need a knife. 300BO is the huge knife that is neither a good axe nor a good knife. If you have to carry only one tool, then the massive knife makes sense. But it still sucks as an axe and likely as a knife too.


If you want to carry a 10" SBR, then 300BO is about as good as it gets. For everything else, there are better options, imo.

..oh, and meat destruction is a bullet argument, not a caliber argument.

Good analogy, but I would put it akin to a hatchet (funny side note: My winter project is reshafting an old BSA hatchet I have with an axe handle like a Danish war axe. Danish Murder Machine!! Limbs trees and opponents).
I have made 300 yard hits on steel targets with my 8" .300 loaded with supers. It hits steel with some authority. Would it be awesome at 500 yards? No, it would not be, just like 7.62 Soviet, it has a rainbow trajectory. But for the average distances we'd see in North America, hunting or militia duty, it works okay in all aspects, Jack of all Trades, master of none. It does everything I need it to and what most hunters would need it to and can serve as a great HD gun, offers flexibility of super/sub sonic with just mag changes (assuming you have it tuned right), etc... I'm not a fanboy of the cartridge, I love 5.56 and will always take one of those with me when Johnny Beijing gets froggy. But I will rest assured that my son and wife will have the .300 at home for whatever they need, with plenty of loaded ammo, notes on holdover and color coded mags for hunting, sub and supersonic ammo.

 

[Bigtanker]

Looks like CMMG worked with Winchester on this. Probably making sure it was AR compatible.

https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2019/01/26/shot-show-2019-cmmg-resolute-350-legend/

From the article....

The unique thing about the .350 Legend cartridge in an AR-15 platform is it utilizes nearly 100% .223 Rem/5.56 NATO components except for the barrel and magazine; everything else is the same. The barrel is different for obvious reasons and the magazines need to be different to ensure proper feeding of the cartridge. A traditional .223 Rem casing is 99% on the way to being the parent case for .350 Legend, but not quite. An actual .350 Legend casing is thicker near the rim and the base of the casing to properly contain the pressures of a .350 Legend round. As a result, tweaking needs to be done to ensure magazines feed this round properly into an AR platform.

So if I'm reading this right, the .350 case is thicker near the rim so I'm thinking you can't (safely) use modified .223 brass. But other than that, it's a different barrel and magazine and your off to the races.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Looks like CMMG worked with Winchester on this. Probably making sure it was AR compatible.

https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2019/01/26/shot-show-2019-cmmg-resolute-350-legend/

From the article....




So if I'm reading this right, the .350 case is thicker near the rim so I'm thinking you can't (safely) use modified .223 brass. But other than that, it's a different barrel and magazine and your off to the races.

Bummer... Well, if CMMG is involved, count on $250+ barrels, at least unless other manufacturers get involved...

 

[cce1302]

Wayback machine:

13 May 2009

mmmm....
I want a .357 carbine like ATM wants bacon. Only different, because ATM gets bacon and I'll probably never see a .357 magnum carbine.

29 June 2009 (on the topic of AR in something other than .223)

.357 maximum. Since that'll never happen, I'd settle for .357 magnum. I'd like one of everything in .357magnum, of course. That being impossible as well, how about .204 Ruger in a 24" fluted stainless bull barrel with a nice 6.5-20x 50mm scope for turning lots of varmints into a fine pink mist.

And just a few weeks ago, 08 December 2018:

I'd love to see any of the .357/.358 wildcats put in a production AR.

 

[dieselrealtor]

KAK has added a category under barrels & parts for 350 legend, empty for now but there.

https://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-parts/upper-parts/barrels/350-legend

 

[whiteoak]

The rumor mill has this gun is set up for .355 bullets! So the AR barrel makers can just chamber the 9mm barrel blanks using the same barrel tooling they already have? Thats why you are seeing new bullets, and 147gr weights as cheep plinkers. Winchester is tooling up to sell it"s new bullets and ammo more than just guns.
If they did this I see that Winchester is just trying to get lots of guns out there quick because if you are set up to make a 9mm barrel, you can upgrade steel and use the same tooling. Everyone will quickly jump in the game. And Winchester wants to sell tons of ammo so that kind of makes sense from an ammo sales standpoint. The best way for Winchester to get as much profit from the AR market is by selling tons of ammo. And if you want an AR round to be popular you need the bullets to work at the velocity window your round will push them. Not a lot of competition from anyone for .355-.356 rifle bullets. Its like choosing ammo for a 270win, all the .277 work for it the 6.8 does not have the sales numbers to muddy the waters of bullet selection much. 300Blackout, you need just the right pill as most .308's are just to tough to work well.
And by making plinking ammo using double stamped & coated 147gr 9mm pills you can push the stuff out the door quick and cheep. (good for me because brass will stack up at the range just down the road hopefully)
The other rumor is that several distributors claim that the Ruger American Ranch will almost beat the Winchester Rifles to market? Remember Ruger got the jump on S&W getting the .44mag out in dealerships?

 

[whiteoak]

Chart from Win catalog

View attachment page0027.pdf

 

[cce1302]

That's the first I've heard .355 bullets. Everything I've seen up to this point has said .357 or .358 dia. Though it is, as you say, "rumor mill" up to this point. I guess the proof is in the puddin.

Careful if you're handloading for the .350 using range pickup brass. Winchester says .350 brass is thicker near the base. Unless you're expecting factory .350 brass to stack up at the range? I think it will be somewhat popular, but I'd be surprised to find a lot of spent brass for it.

I wonder how the subsonic rounds will turn out. Might make for a good .50 yd hush puppy...

 

[two70]

The rumor mill has this gun is set up for .355 bullets! So the AR barrel makers can just chamber the 9mm barrel blanks using the same barrel tooling they already have? Thats why you are seeing new bullets, and 147gr weights as cheep plinkers. Winchester is tooling up to sell it"s new bullets and ammo more than just guns.
If they did this I see that Winchester is just trying to get lots of guns out there quick because if you are set up to make a 9mm barrel, you can upgrade steel and use the same tooling. Everyone will quickly jump in the game. And Winchester wants to sell tons of ammo so that kind of makes sense from an ammo sales standpoint. The best way for Winchester to get as much profit from the AR market is by selling tons of ammo. And if you want an AR round to be popular you need the bullets to work at the velocity window your round will push them. Not a lot of competition from anyone for .355-.356 rifle bullets. Its like choosing ammo for a 270win, all the .277 work for it the 6.8 does not have the sales numbers to muddy the waters of bullet selection much. 300Blackout, you need just the right pill as most .308's are just to tough to work well.
And by making plinking ammo using double stamped & coated 147gr 9mm pills you can push the stuff out the door quick and cheep. (good for me because brass will stack up at the range just down the road hopefully)
The other rumor is that several distributors claim that the Ruger American Ranch will almost beat the Winchester Rifles to market? Remember Ruger got the jump on S&W getting the .44mag out in dealerships?
View attachment 74268

This speculation may turn out to be correct but there is one major flaw I see with it. This round is obviously being targeted to the deer hunting market in states where rifles are only legal if they are chambered in straight walled cartridges. Some of those states also have a .357 minimum diameter for the bullet which would make the .350 Legend illegal if it used a .355 bullet. The Legend is being advertised as legal in something like 47 states and has been tested in states that I'm pretty sure have a .357 bullet diameter minimum.

 

[whiteoak]

Yea, the Indiana regulations states .357 but is that before you put it through the bore? or after it swages in the bore? The drawing that is making the rounds as the spec for the chamber shows a .357 throat section. So it may start out as a .357 but exits as a .355 outside the lands, Is that legal ??? I will not matter to me I'm hunting my private ground but to guys on public it could really be an issue!

 

[Broom_jm]

I'm sure Indiana will include this cartridge, by name if necessary, because it adheres to the spirit of the regulations, if not the exact (current) wording. I seriously doubt anyone would be prosecuted for using a 350 Legend in an otherwise lawful pursuit of game, much like those who used the 460 S&W were never prosecuted, during the 1.625" days.

My problem with this round is that it has a non-standard head size; .390" instead of .378". That makes it a much less interesting round, in my opinion.

 

[Bigtanker]

Guns & Ammo has a write up about this round in the latest issue (March 2019). I'll post some ballistic specs after a bit.

 

[Bigtanker]

According to G&A, the initial factory loading of a .357, 150 gr bullet is going 2,290 fps out of a 20" barrel. The Deer Season Extreme Point (XP) is designed to open up down to 1,550 fps. That makes this a 200-250 yard round.

The article also touches on very mild muzzle blast due to the large (compared to .223) bore and about the same powder charge (21 grains) as the .223. Recoil was reported as very mild also.

The last thing they touched on was ammo cost. Since the case is basicly made on .223 brass machinery (a few small extra steps) and projectiles are made on the same machinery as 9mm (albeit different construction) bullets. Reports of a FMJ target load will be available for about $10 for a box of 20.

They are claiming similar ballistics to the .30-.30.

Hunting reports a deer at just under 200 yds, bullet hit just behind the shoulder and exited through the other shoulder.

When the article hits the web, I'll post it.

 

[Hohn]

Yea, the Indiana regulations states .357 but is that before you put it through the bore? or after it swages in the bore? The drawing that is making the rounds as the spec for the chamber shows a .357 throat section. So it may start out as a .357 but exits as a .355 outside the lands, Is that legal ??? I will not matter to me I'm hunting my private ground but to guys on public it could really be an issue!

The Indiana rules say clearly it must "fire a bullet of .357 or larger". Meaning, it has to start out larger than that.

Guys trying to use this in Indiana will not be legal on public land.

The SMART thing for Winchester to do would be to use .357 bullets and .355/9mm bores. The bullet will obdurate that .002" amount without difficulty. It's not any different than running the Soviet 7.62 round (SAAMI bore: .309-.311) in a .308 bore blank, which happens all the time. Almost every American maker of 7.62x39 rifles sizes the bore at the "american" size of .308.

I don't think .002 matters functionally, but it definitely does legally.

 

[Bigtanker]

The Indiana rules say clearly it must "fire a bullet of .357 or larger". Meaning, it has to start out larger than that.

Guys trying to use this in Indiana will not be legal on public land.

The SMART thing for Winchester to do would be to use .357 bullets and .355/9mm bores. The bullet will obdurate that .002" amount without difficulty. It's not any different than running the Soviet 7.62 round (SAAMI bore: .309-.311) in a .308 bore blank, which happens all the time. Almost every American maker of 7.62x39 rifles sizes the bore at the "american" size of .308.

I don't think .002 matters functionally, but it definitely does legally.

They do use a .357 bullet.

Here is a picture of the article in G&A.

 

[cce1302]

Hamilton Arms in Jackson, MI announced on their facebook page that they are taking pre-orders for .350 legend uppers right now.

Any questions, ask them because I know virtually nothing about the company.

Hamilton Arms - Home

 

[cce1302]

CMMG Barrels listed here for $165 but not yet in stock.

Man, I'm getting excited about this caliber. Ok, I've always wanted a .357 magnum semi-auto rifle. I'm glad they figured out how to make a SAAMI spec'd cartridge to stick in an AR. I can't wait to pick one up.

Affordable barrel, affordable ammo, .357 Magnum + performance from an AR. What's not to like?

 

[Hohn]

So it's got ballistics a little better than a Grendel and is deer legal. It's hard to imagine this not being a local success at least. This is exactly what local 'cats like 358 Hoosier were intended for, right?

 

[cce1302]

So it's got ballistics a little better than a Grendel and is deer legal. It's hard to imagine this not being a local success at least. This is exactly what local 'cats like 358 Hoosier were intended for, right?

Precisely. 200 yards on deer is all I'm hoping for, and this should have no problem meeting that expectation.

It's nothing crazy, not really breaking any new ground, just making a .357 that will cycle in an AR.

Shouldn't have to worry about things like feeding or ejecting, consistency, anything like that.