You Can't Tap Out In The Street

[szorn]

A couple more points-

There is a huge difference between fighting and self-defense. Does anyone here truly think that an armed assailant is going to slap your face with a glove and challenge you to a pistol duel? No! They are either going to perform a testing ritual (interview) or they are going to ambush you! Training for one doesn't prepare you well for the other. Sparring and other similar sport-based drills can provide some attributes but that doesn't mean they provide skills that have direct application to self-defense. The very concept of sparring is to give and take. Unfortunately this concept can result in some disastrous consequences when your life is on the line. Again I refer to my previous comments.

There is one thing that most martial arts overlook...the adrenal response. A person can do all kinds of intricate, flashy, and complex things when adrenaline isn't involved. As soon as adrenaline rears it's head many if not most of those things go out the window. Many will claim that aspects of martial arts like sparring and full-contact fighting do cause an adrenal response. I would agree but unfortunately the response caused by those events is not comparable to the response caused by asymmetrical life-threatening situations. That being the case, those skills that often seem to work well in a controlled training environment or in the fairly controlled ring seem to detoriate when the loss of life could easily be a result of ones actions.

Steve

 

[Jackson]

A couple more points-

There is a huge difference between fighting and self-defense. Does anyone here truly think that an armed assailant is going to slap your face with a glove and challenge you to a pistol duel? No! They are either going to perform a testing ritual (interview) or they are going to ambush you! Training for one doesn't prepare you well for the other. Sparring and other similar sport-based drills can provide some attributes but that doesn't mean they provide skills that have direct application to self-defense. The very concept of sparring is to give and take. Unfortunately this concept can result in some disastrous consequences when your life is on the line. Again I refer to my previous comments.

There is one thing that most martial arts overlook...the adrenal response. A person can do all kinds of intricate, flashy, and complex things when adrenaline isn't involved. As soon as adrenaline rears it's head many if not most of those things go out the window. Many will claim that aspects of martial arts like sparring and full-contact fighting do cause an adrenal response. I would agree but unfortunately the response caused by those events is not comparable to the response caused by asymmetrical life-threatening situations. That being the case, those skills that often seem to work well in a controlled training environment or in the fairly controlled ring seem to detoriate when the loss of life could easily be a result of ones actions.

Steve

So... Martial Arts are not a good place to spend training time and dollars?

 

[Tactically Fat]

So... Martial Arts are not a good place to spend training time and dollars?

I know you didn't ask me...

But it all depends on what one's goals/intentions are for said martial arts.

 

[Jackson]

I know you didn't ask me...

But it all depends on what one's goals/intentions are for said martial arts.

My goals are many, but for the purposes of this thread, my goal is to be better prepared to survive a criminal assault.

 

[Tactically Fat]

My goals are many, but for the purposes of this thread, my goal is to be better prepared to survive a criminal assault.

Delving into the realms of possibility here...

"It depends" on the martial art. Tai Chi? A belt-mill Karate/Kung Fu/Judo school? Maybe. I'd lean towards probably not.

Stick-based art? kali / eskrima? I think I'd give that a little more weight - but only if you start carrying a stick around with you.\

in MY limited knowledge of what all martial arts are available to learn, I'd think that there are precious few that really and truly help a student be better prepared to survive a criminal assault. Two that immediately come to mind have already been mentioned: Krav Maga and BJJ.

 

[cedartop]

Delving into the realms of possibility here...

"It depends" on the martial art. Tai Chi? A belt-mill Karate/Kung Fu/Judo school? Maybe. I'd lean towards probably not.

Stick-based art? kali / eskrima? I think I'd give that a little more weight - but only if you start carrying a stick around with you.\

in MY limited knowledge of what all martial arts are available to learn, I'd think that there are precious few that really and truly help a student be better prepared to survive a criminal assault. Two that immediately come to mind have already been mentioned: Krav Maga and BJJ.

And yet to many people much more skilled and experienced than I, Krav is considered a joke. About on par with systema.

 

[Jackson]

In my fairly limited experience, BJJ at most places does not necessarily address the wide array of topics and techniques needed to defend yourself in an enequal initiate event. Especially if there are weapons involved. Or if it does, it will be intermixed with a lot of sporterized techniques that work best in the context of sport-specific rules.

What it does really, really well is teach positional awareness, positional control, finely tuned understanding of your opponent's weight/balance/positional mistakes in a grappling context, allowing the experienced practitioner to advance position and overtake the inexperienced opponent in a way that almost feels like effortless magic when you're on the receiving end.

 

[churchmouse]

So... Martial Arts are not a good place to spend training time and dollars?

As with T-Fat I need to respond to this.
I have not seriously trained in years. Age/life and other factors but I have continued to train my kids over time.
There have been situations in the time I have not trained that required physical response. I find that once the training is ingrained and is part of muscle memory Adrenalin only enhances my response. Everything just happens as it should. The training is still there.

 

[Jackson]

[/B]And yet to many people much more skilled and experienced than I, Krav is considered a joke. About on par with systema.

I've got no first-hand experience with Krav but I've heard it both ways. If I had more time, and/or there was a place that was closer, I'd like to give it a solid 6 months and see what I think.

 

[cedartop]

I've got no first-hand experience with Krav but I've heard it both ways. If I had more time, and/or there was a place that was closer, I'd like to give it a solid 6 months and see what I think.

I think one of the problems with Krav is that that name covers a wide range of stuff. Some of it is not far removed from being cardio kickboxing. I am sure there is some that is relevant.

 

[Jackson]

As with T-Fat I need to respond to this.
I have not seriously trained in years. Age/life and other factors but I have continued to train my kids over time.
There have been situations in the time I have not trained that required physical response. I find that once the training is ingrained and is part of muscle memory Adrenalin only enhances my response. Everything just happens as it should. The training is still there.

In what martial arts did you train and what were you able to apply? Was there anything you found wasn't applicable or wasn't optimal?

If you got back in to it, what would you train?

 

[Jackson]

I think one of the problems with Krav is that that name covers a wide range of stuff. Some of it is not far removed from being cardio kickboxing. I am sure there is some that is relevant.

I could probably stand to improve my cardio.

 

[cedartop]

I could probably stand to improve my cardio.

Most of us could. It would probably do more good for us than any of this other stuff we talk about.

 

[Tactically Fat]

[/B]And yet to many people much more skilled and experienced than I, Krav is considered a joke. About on par with systema.

I wonder if that's all to do with the particular instructor/school/gym?

I mean there's still "fitness" BJJ and then there's MMA BBJ, and then there's fighting/SD BBJ... They're all BJJ but have different "tones" to the training, if you will.

Again, I'm no expert on anything at all (Someone's sig line material there, I'm sure) - but I think one can probably find enough Bullshido within any martial art system that someone would discredit it.

I don't know enough about KM to know one way or another if it's crap or if it's not. It SEEMS like it could be a useful art, but it also seems like it can be ripe for abuse/ripping people off.

 

[cedartop]

I wonder if that's all to do with the particular instructor/school/gym?

I mean there's still "fitness" BJJ and then there's MMA BBJ, and then there's fighting/SD BBJ... They're all BJJ but have different "tones" to the training, if you will.

Again, I'm no expert on anything at all (Someone's sig line material there, I'm sure) - but I think one can probably find enough Bullshido within any martial art system that someone would discredit it.

I don't know enough about KM to know one way or another if it's crap or if it's not. It SEEMS like it could be a useful art, but it also seems like it can be ripe for abuse/ripping people off.

Sounds like a reasonable postulation.

 

[rhino]

[/B]And yet to many people much more skilled and experienced than I, Krav is considered a joke. About on par with systema.

Systema: Russia's response to Aikido!

I think one of the problems with Krav is that that name covers a wide range of stuff. Some of it is not far removed from being cardio kickboxing. I am sure there is some that is relevant.

I wonder if that's all to do with the particular instructor/school/gym?

I mean there's still "fitness" BJJ and then there's MMA BBJ, and then there's fighting/SD BBJ... They're all BJJ but have different "tones" to the training, if you will.

Again, I'm no expert on anything at all (Someone's sig line material there, I'm sure) - but I think one can probably find enough Bullshido within any martial art system that someone would discredit it.

I don't know enough about KM to know one way or another if it's crap or if it's not. It SEEMS like it could be a useful art, but it also seems like it can be ripe for abuse/ripping people off.

I suspect . . . and as usual, I could be wrong . . . that what is taught commercially as "krav maga" may not be all that similar to what a group of Mossad agents do when they are training with each other to increase their collective chances of surviving the next few years. Much like what happens in a commercial Tae Kwon Do school in Indiana isn't all that similar to what ROK soldiers do when they train to kill their counterparts to the north.

I think the body of techniques is going to be different, although there will be overlap and some commonality of methods and rationales. I think the biggest difference is in the attitude and intent of the participants. If Moishe permanently cripples or kills Abraham in training in Israel or Ivan takes out Mischa somewhere in Siberia, it's going to viewed differently and the repercussions will be different than if James does the same thing to Billy somewhere in Indianapolis at the local dojo on a Wednesday evening.

 

[Coach]

So... Martial Arts are not a good place to spend training time and dollars?

Are we talking about men or women? Does the gender of the person training matter?

How much does the size and strength of the person matter?

How much does the cardio strength or conditioning of the person matter?

Is the person you are fighting ready? (They picked the time and place of the criminal encounter)

 

[Jackson]

Are we talking about men or women? Does the gender of the person training matter?

How much does the size and strength of the person matter?

How much does the cardio strength or conditioning of the person matter?

Is the person you are fighting ready? (They picked the time and place of the criminal encounter)

Probably yes to all of the above. Should men and women train differently?

 

[Coach]

Probably yes to all of the above. Should men and women train differently?

They are physically different.

 

[Jackson]

They are physically different.

I appreciate those differences when I can. From a training standpoint, how do you approach training women differently from men, assuming they are training for similar problems?