You Can't Tap Out In The Street

[ATM]

You Can't Tap Out In The Street

I tap anywhere I please.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm not very familiar with the Chinese martial arts. What does Qin Na look like in practice in the modern US school? My very minimal exposure to it is confined to standing lock flow drills. In practice, does Qin Na include clinch work, take downs, throws, positional control on the ground (like you'd see in wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, et al) in addition to the distal joint locking techniques? I'm assume it must. How do most CMA practitioners approach the grappling training and how much emphasis does it receive?

"Qin na" means "seize and control". It is joint locks, take downs, wrestling of the Four Methods of Boxing: hitting, kicking, throwing and wrestling (qin na is here and in throwing).

Qin Na is considered "anti-wrestling" in most styles. The bigger systems White Crane, Eagle Claw, Praying Mantis (all cousins), Long Fist, Choi Li Fut, etc. all have heavy emphasis on throwing, qin na as they are enormous systems. Systems such as Wing Chun do not emphasis qin na (it is there, not stressed).

If White Crane or Praying Mantis is a symphony, then Wing Chun is a Ramones song. Mantis has 60 hand forms (including 3 man forms), 18 weapons, wrestling, throwing, etc. Wing Chun has 3 hand forms and 2 weapons (we have the tripodial, the mook, and the plum flower steps, which are cool but just training aids).

Wrestling is common within CMA systems, how much emphasis it receives depends on the teacher. Hitting and kicking is usually done first. The Indianapolis Mantis school teaches qin na separately from boxing as their teacher is an instructor under Yang Jwing-Ming.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So... Martial Arts are not a good place to spend training time and dollars?

Spend the time looking for a teacher, not the style.

Even at my age, I love training martial arts. As the broken down (very) senior NCO of the kwoon I love having motivation to stay active and train. I love the periodic revelations that I still get in training.

However, I especially enjoy seeing the young guys learn and grow. To see them defeat themselves is a particular joy.

I don't teach. I may never, unless one of the boys (nephews) comes to me. I'll be here, still pounding away on the mook or tripodial.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

In my fairly limited experience, BJJ at most places does not necessarily address the wide array of topics and techniques needed to defend yourself in an enequal initiate event. Especially if there are weapons involved. Or if it does, it will be intermixed with a lot of sporterized techniques that work best in the context of sport-specific rules.

What it does really, really well is teach positional awareness, positional control, finely tuned understanding of your opponent's weight/balance/positional mistakes in a grappling context, allowing the experienced practitioner to advance position and overtake the inexperienced opponent in a way that almost feels like effortless magic when you're on the receiving end.

BJJ gives you discipline and motivation. It must be respected for its work ethic and its emphasis on randori which can be safely trained.

 

[Jackson]

So is Qin pronounced Chin or Kin?

 

[chezuki]

They are physically different.

I've noticed this as well.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Q is Ch, so it is "Chin Na".

This is Yang's best book on it, IMO: https://www.amazon.com/Analysis-Sha...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=F6R9J1NGAMDSZESYM5ZH

Yang's DVD series is excellent too.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I don't know enough about the history to have an intelligent discussion about whether BJJ and Judo were passed down from CMA initially.

Yes, it flowed like this: Shuai Gao + Ditanqinna shr =>imported into Japan became juijitsu (many styles)=>from juijitsu Kano developed Judo=>from the newaza of Judo + wrestling techniques of Franca, the Machados and Gracies comes BJJ

 

[Fargo]

I appreciate those differences when I can. From a training standpoint, how do you approach training women differently from men, assuming they are training for similar problems?

In a hands-on environment, the percentage of women physically able to stand and throw or be dominant on the ground it's not a huge one. As such, I think an emphasis on force equalizers and disengagement skills is often helpful.

That is not to say that the same emphasis isn't normally appropriate in teaching men, for the vast majority of men study martial arts I would say it probably is. Very few actually want to compete in a Full Contact setting.However, depending what you want out of martial arts training, I think that pure combatives are probably more useful in actual applications for men.

For me, training in martial arts is in many ways a mindset thing as well as a physical conditioning thing. Learning the more advanced skills comes in a distant third for me.

Sometimes we need to remind ourselves that we are tough in order to maintain a proper mindset. For me, standing with a MMA guy for three 3 minute rounds in the ring reminds me of that, even if we aren't going hard. It also motivates me to remain in good enough shape to be able to hang. Lastly I continue to expand and perfect my skill set, but in my opinion skill set is not the most important thing in preparing for an actual fight. Trusting my own toughness and understanding my limitations, remaining relaxed and breathing, and maintaining decent physical condition are much more important in my opinion.

 

[Coach]

I appreciate those differences when I can. From a training standpoint, how do you approach training women differently from men, assuming they are training for similar problems?

I had vowed to not say it. But I am going to anyway. I think martial arts training for most women is a waste of time. Physical strength and mass differences are not going to be over come. I think a ton of martial arts hands on fighting styles for women is a mistake and give false confidence just like modern day hollywood movie fight scenes.

The average man is going to beat exceptional women in hand to hand.

 

[Coach]

I've noticed this as well.

Being good with the obvious is what separate us from the herd.

 

[Hoosierkav]

I think that guys are more likely to get into fights/attacks, vs women are likely to face a physical attack with ulterior motives... ??

This has been a great thread--I've love to find a program in my area that focuses on fighting/self defense, and not ranks and profit.

 

[Fargo]

I think that guys are more likely to get into fights/attacks, vs women are likely to face a physical attack with ulterior motives... ??

This has been a great thread--I've love to find a program in my area that focuses on fighting/self defense, and not ranks and profit.

Give Tim White's school a look, it might be along the lines you are looking for.

Home - Police Services and The Molum Combat Arts Association

 

[szorn]

I know you didn't ask me...

But it all depends on what one's goals/intentions are for said martial arts.

I agree! It depends on goals, interests, available time, etc. While my personal focus is defensive / combative skills I am not opposed to more traditional martial arts training as long as the student understands what it is they are doing and why. I think that it's the instructors responsibility and obligation to ensure that the student isn't being mislead and to assist them with their goals. The instructor must also be willing to direct the student to another instructor if they are not able to help fulfill the students needs. As an example if someone comes to me wanting MMA I refer them to other instructors, I don't attempt to lead the student into believing that I am qualified to teach MMA. Unfortunately the same can't be said of all of the instructors out there...

Steve

 

[szorn]

I appreciate those differences when I can. From a training standpoint, how do you approach training women differently from men, assuming they are training for similar problems?

The reality is that there is little difference in how men and women should train IF we are talking about surviving explosive violence. The fundamental awareness skills, Mind-Set / mental preparation, boundary-setting / verbal self-defense, etc. is the same. The physical skills (at least those that have been shown to work for the majority) are the same. In some positions / situations there may be an emphasis on the physiological strengths of women to help give them an edge such as hip and leg strength but that's about the only difference. While I have trained men, women, teens, and children from all walks of life the majority of my students / clientele have been women.

Steve

 

[Coach]

What percentage of men who would have the disposition to attack women can be defeated by a well trained women in martial arts?

 

[Thor]

Very very few, they may get an initial surprise defensive attack and then they need to be gone. Staying to fight is a losing proposition. It's why I teach my daughter to attack with violence then RUN! Get away so she can live...and maybe turn around and shoot the SOB.

 

[churchmouse]

Very very few, they may get an initial surprise defensive attack and then they need to be gone. Staying to fight is a losing proposition. It's why I teach my daughter to attack with violence then RUN! Get away so she can live...and maybe turn around and shoot the SOB.

This was the focus of how I "Attempted" to train my daughter.
Target soft spots of opportunity....do some damage and run.
Growing up with 4 brothers she is more apt to stand toe to toe with you. She is big boned and can smack the crap out of you. Has had me and her brother on the ground more than once. Also sported some dents and bruises delivered by her in the past.

Even with this I agree with the opinions above. Strike/run/defend with lethal force if need be.

Some people have an innate ability to defend themselves. It comes naturally. Some do not. Training might help the do not's. If you grew up scraping (I did) then it comes naturally. Picking the right program is all important.

 

[cedartop]

I had vowed to not say it. But I am going to anyway. I think martial arts training for most women is a waste of time. Physical strength and mass differences are not going to be over come. I think a ton of martial arts hands on fighting styles for women is a mistake and give false confidence just like modern day hollywood movie fight scenes.

The average man is going to beat exceptional women in hand to hand.

The Biggest Lie in Jiu Jitsu

 

[Kirk Freeman]

What percentage of men who would have the disposition to attack women can be defeated by a well trained women in martial arts?

There is a saying in CMA (Oh, geez, stop it, Freeman, there's a saying in CMA for everything): "one power defeats 10 techniques".

I have trained alongside a few women. Some became highly proficient and a handful were terrifying (Dr. Yang's daughter and Master Chung's two daughters still induce fear shudders). How they train is again up to the instructor.

I have a teacher who does not discriminate or show favoritism and trains his females students harder than the males, especially at first. Look for the teacher, not the technique.