You Force on Force and SD trainers....

[EvilBlackGun]

An observed scenario, which worked.

Entered the GasAmerica on Anderson Bypass, to get a paper. At the same time that I came in I saw two Hoodie-clad homeys to my right near the counter splitting up to get to both of the cashiers. Then I heard a loud male "cough" from my foreground left. My eyes went towards the "cough" and I saw a black pistol held in both hands by a "shopper" directed at the counter, swaying between the to hoodied gents, who had looked towards the "cough" also. Those gents immediately remembered that they had forgotten something in their car, and they very quickly exited the store. I wondered if I would've had the b8lls to have pulled on them. That customer was not even shaken, and I suspect he was LEO or MIL trained. He said he watched the pair enter as he was about to leave. Spidey-sense compelled him to orbit to the rear of the store and unsnap his holster. What part of his action was wrong? What part was right? What part worked? If he hadn't acted, I was intending to exit also, and watch for a get-away vehicle, AFTER all the action. Too fragile to fight, too tired to run. I had a 9-shot .22 in my parka pocket. EBG

Hey man...watch it. Don't make fun!

 

[churchmouse]

For me, it seems as though without the obvious "means" to do the harm if he was further than about 18 feet I think the situation could have been handled my merely turning, lifting the covering clothes in such a fashion that makes the weapon obvious and placing your hand on it. I see this as a "escalation of force" tactic. Had he seen the gun at this point he probably would have ran. If not then drawing the weapon ensures that he sees it, however it may or may not be necessary to point it at them yet. This just gives them an even better opportunity to identify that you are armed and willing to use it and the opportunity to run. If he still chooses to ignore and advances, then pointing at him, removing the safety, etc would be much more "feasible" of a reaction. Now, if he was within that 18 ft. +/- bubble, then you can skip steps as necessary depending on circumstances. This system simply ensures that you have taken all possible measures to "avoid" use of deadly force and if their attack persists, then it's hard to argue against your actions. The courts are going to want exactly that. They are going to want to know if you did EVERYTHING within your power to indicate to the attacker that you were armed and prepared to use deadly force prior to his engagement.

Granted, in his information there is a serious lack of detail to be able to say yay or nay, but this is just a basic system I adhere to in the civilian world regarding firearms.

^^^This^^^

Aware of your surroundings. My bubble is the 15 ft. mentioned. If you are in a tactical advantage... weapon cleared from cover, hand in place then you can overcome the 18/20 ft. rule as you are near halfway there and the mind is in muscle memory. If not in that state of awareness then be prepared for some hand to hand. My 1911 has made a rather nice club on one occasion.
Do all in your power to keep from having to end someone. Right or wrong you are in the soup.

 

[churchmouse]

Entered the GasAmerica on Anderson Bypass, to get a paper. At the same time that I came in I saw two Hoodie-clad homeys to my right near the counter splitting up to get to both of the cashiers. Then I heard a loud male "cough" from my foreground left. My eyes went towards the "cough" and I saw a black pistol held in both hands by a "shopper" directed at the counter, swaying between the to hoodied gents, who had looked towards the "cough" also. Those gents immediately remembered that they had forgotten something in their car, and they very quickly exited the store. I wondered if I would've had the b8lls to have pulled on them. That customer was not even shaken, and I suspect he was LEO or MIL trained. He said he watched the pair enter as he was about to leave. Spidey-sense compelled him to orbit to the rear of the store and unsnap his holster. What part of his action was wrong? What part was right? What part worked? If he hadn't acted, I was intending to exit also, and watch for a get-away vehicle, AFTER all the action. Too fragile to fight, too tired to run. I had a 9-shot .22 in my parka pocket. EBG

He was aware, reacted and stopped what could have been a lethal confrontation. In that scenario just to have shown it would not have been enough against multiple assailants. Hand to hand against multiple perps is a loosing deal as well unless you are Bruce Lee or get the drop on one and the other is off balance. I find little at fault with that. JMHO

 

[the1kidd03]

Entered the GasAmerica on Anderson Bypass, to get a paper. At the same time that I came in I saw two Hoodie-clad homeys to my right near the counter splitting up to get to both of the cashiers. Then I heard a loud male "cough" from my foreground left. My eyes went towards the "cough" and I saw a black pistol held in both hands by a "shopper" directed at the counter, swaying between the to hoodied gents, who had looked towards the "cough" also. Those gents immediately remembered that they had forgotten something in their car, and they very quickly exited the store. I wondered if I would've had the b8lls to have pulled on them. That customer was not even shaken, and I suspect he was LEO or MIL trained. He said he watched the pair enter as he was about to leave. Spidey-sense compelled him to orbit to the rear of the store and unsnap his holster. What part of his action was wrong? What part was right? What part worked? If he hadn't acted, I was intending to exit also, and watch for a get-away vehicle, AFTER all the action. Too fragile to fight, too tired to run. I had a 9-shot .22 in my parka pocket. EBG

This is a good scenario to consider regarding situational awareness. Last weekend my friend and I had a similar occurance. Before heading south of the border for some training my friend and I stopped at a gas station. We noticed a "run down" car sitting right in front of the front door with a young hoodie dawning "gangster" sitting in the driver's seat looking around a lot. His friend got out of the car and was letting EVERYONE in the station go ahead of him in line. So we waited in my vehicle which was next to theirs until the very last person left the store and it was only the clerk and that one "gangster." Then my buddy went into the store to "buy a drink that we had forgotten" and I hung out by my vehicle. The kid was the next one out and my friend was right behind him. Nothing happened, but it just makes you wonder if it was because we were there or they actually had no intentions. Also, how many people would be aware of their surroundings enough to have even noticed this activity. Too few I think.

 

[churchmouse]

The bad eggs stick out in a crowd if you are looking. Body language, actions, etc.

 

[the1kidd03]

The bad eggs stick out in a crowd if you are looking. Body language, actions, etc.

You got that right. When my wife OC's I try to tell her to keep her hands out of her hoodie pockets because it is a common "threatening" stature used by "gangsters" when about to strike. It's not a good idea when you have a gun on your hip. She doesn't get this concept, but i've seen too many attacks start out by a guy in that same fashion trying to appear as though he has no harmful intentions.

 

[churchmouse]

You got that right. When my wife OC's I try to tell her to keep her hands out of her hoodie pockets because it is a common "threatening" stature used by "gangsters" when about to strike. It's not a good idea when you have a gun on your hip. She doesn't get this concept, but i've seen too many attacks start out by a guy in that same fashion trying to appear as though he has no harmful intentions.

I know we are picking on the "Hoodie" crowd but do not wear the uniform if you do not want to be recognized in that group. I teach my kids to this day, look at who is around you. Recognize their intentions. It is obvious if you look.
My analogy, If you were LEO, who would you be watching in this room or area.
They are really good at it now.

 

[the1kidd03]

I know we are picking on the "Hoodie" crowd but do not wear the uniform if you do not want to be recognized in that group. I teach my kids to this day, look at who is around you. Recognize their intentions. It is obvious if you look.
My analogy, If you were LEO, who would you be watching in this room or area.
They are really good at it now.

LOL I wear a hoodie most of the time, but just because they are comfortable and makes for easy concealment. I don't walk around OC'ing with my hands in my pockets though. That's simply asking for trouble in some form. My wife's SA is still a work in progress though. For some reason, having the emotional attachment to me prevents her from taking my advice/training seriously enough to let it stick sometimes.

 

[jsharmon7]

Entered the GasAmerica on Anderson Bypass, to get a paper. At the same time that I came in I saw two Hoodie-clad homeys to my right near the counter splitting up to get to both of the cashiers. Then I heard a loud male "cough" from my foreground left. My eyes went towards the "cough" and I saw a black pistol held in both hands by a "shopper" directed at the counter, swaying between the to hoodied gents, who had looked towards the "cough" also. Those gents immediately remembered that they had forgotten something in their car, and they very quickly exited the store. I wondered if I would've had the b8lls to have pulled on them. That customer was not even shaken, and I suspect he was LEO or MIL trained. He said he watched the pair enter as he was about to leave. Spidey-sense compelled him to orbit to the rear of the store and unsnap his holster. What part of his action was wrong? What part was right? What part worked? If he hadn't acted, I was intending to exit also, and watch for a get-away vehicle, AFTER all the action. Too fragile to fight, too tired to run. I had a 9-shot .22 in my parka pocket. EBG

I'm trying to follow your story. A fellow shopper pulled his gun and pointed it at two guys at a gas station because they wore hoodies and made him feel uncomfortable?

 

[the1kidd03]

I'm trying to follow your story. A fellow shopper pulled his gun and pointed it at two guys at a gas station because they wore hoodies and made him feel uncomfortable?

I take it as: he was observing through the window and did not know the context entirely....two guys in hoodies, presumably robbing the store and a "shopper" drawing down on them forcing them to run

 

[jeremy]

My analogy, If you were LEO, who would you be watching in this room or area.

I would be watching every last one of you Bastages if I was a LEO, just so I could have a valid reason to throw you in the Jail...

 

[HICKMAN]

heh, if you don't think DHS isn't reading every post on this forum...

 

[Fargo]

Having only read the vague OP, I would not have reacted the same way.

The aggressor had opportunity, he had intent, but it is unclear if he had ability. It is also unclear what other options that OP had to avail himself of.

How far away was the guy? Could the OP have just jumped in his car and locked the doors and driven away? Did the OP believe the aggressor was armed?

At least the OP heard a verbal threat. Without that, pulling his gun would've been really difficult to justify.

Where is this "ability" thing coming from. He was within a proximate distance and stated an intention to commit a forcible felony on your person.

I am really hard pressed to find a clearer case where Indiana's use of force statute applies.

Half the posters on this board seem to think he would additionally have to be in fear of his life/health. That is not the case, all he needs is a reasonable belief his actions are necessary to stop a forcible felony.

Additionally, it would seem likely to me that the threat of robbery would also be grounds for fear of life/health thereby triggering an additional, wholly independent justification for pulling his weapon.

If the guy had continued to approach, it would seem to me that you would be wholly justified in shooting, once again to stop the forcible felony AND because you would be in fear for life/health.

This running to your car bit was taken care of with the "no duty to retreat" language explicit in the statute.

I have 0 problem with person pulling a gun on a person who has stated an intention to rob them. I see virtually no way it is not justified absent unclean hands etc.

While finger on the trigger might not be advisable, it certainly isn't illegal.

I'm seeing tons of handwringing and pants-wetting over what appears to me to be exactly the type of thing the use of force statute exists to legalize.

Color me confused.

Joe

 

[jeremy]

heh, if you don't think DHS isn't reading every post on this forum...

So what....

I am probably on all there lists already....

 

[churchmouse]

Fargo, We all see the world through different eyes for many reasons. I see so many on this site that have apparently lived safe and sheltered lives and believe the Law is always on their side and will protect them. Or something like that. These fine folks are entitled to their opinions right or wrong in the eyes of those who have looked up from the paper work or phone while sitting in their vehicle on a late night call or in an area of concern to see several individuals of questionable character wanting their stuff. Once you see this first hand your view of the world changes forever.
Then there are those of us that just enjoyed running on the dark side.
You will never make sense of these comments or mind sets. It sounds like my father and he never understood until his house was forcibly entered and he was severely beaten when he refused to give the combo to his gun safe. All of his guns were locked inside. I tried to get him aware of the ever changing world around us but it never soaked in until it was near to late for him. Same mindset. No offense to anyone, just know what i know.

 

[EvilBlackGun]

NSA watches ...

... all of those w/ foreign flaggers. EBG

heh, if you don't think DHS isn't reading every post on this forum...

 

[EvilBlackGun]

Clarification-context

The two gents entered the store before I did. I did not see the gun-wielder pass the doors, but he said he had watched the two as they approached the store, and for something he saw he decided to wait a spell inside the store. He evidently saw a lot more than I saw. I watched the two gents split up approaching the counter. I halt, just inside the doors, to watch. I hear a "cough" and turn to see the gun in the -wielder's hands. The two gents did also, and departed -- quickly. "Uncomfortable" might be "spidey-sense" to the gun-wielder, he didn't use that word. I didn't see a badge, but his condition, clothing, and actions didn't prompt me to ask. I made an assumption, not confrontation.

I'm trying to follow your story. A fellow shopper pulled his gun and pointed it at two guys at a gas station because they wore hoodies and made him feel uncomfortable?

 

[Fargo]

The more I think about this, the more this whole mental exercise offends me.

If by the grace of God some stupid bastard decides to try to rob you without already having a weapon in hand, IMO you should first pull yours and then thank the dear Lord above that he has given you an opportunity to continue to live.

I say that, because if he already has a weapon in his hands at the time you notice his intentions toward you, you are so far behind that your odds of not getting really hurt are really not worth mentioning. That goes regardless of what kind of weapon he is holding.

Go ahead and go for your weapon against the guy who already has his in hand. See how fast he closes the gap and see what happens when he gets to you, even if by some chance you get a round into him.

Try it in FoF with your training buddies when you know its coming. Then, consider how it would go if you didn't and if the guy on the other end was not your friend.

Joe

 

[esrice]

Where is this "ability" thing coming from. He was within a proximate distance and stated an intention to commit a forcible felony on your person.

Ability, intent, and opportunity-- 3 things that must be present for a clear case of self-defense to be made. Sure, you could argue other points from the Indiana IC, but having those 3 makes for a very clean cut case. Now the OP did not fire, which is good because he couldn't yet establish ability.

The issue of draw/challenge versus [insert other option here] is a personal one. I wasn't there, but by the vague description it sounded like there were other viable options present.

Try it in FoF with your training buddies when you know its coming.

I did. Just this past weekend actually. And yes, drawing on a drawn gun is a tactical impossibility.

 

[Fargo]

Ability, intent, and opportunity-- 3 things that must be present for a clear case of self-defense to be made. Sure, you could argue other points from the Indiana IC, but having those 3 makes for a very clean cut case.

For my own edification, where are those three elements coming from? I don't recall them in the statute and I don't recall them from the caselaw.

Not trying to be smart, just honestly wanting to know.

Thanks,

Joe