You Force on Force and SD trainers....

[churchmouse]

That is my observation. Both are on solid ground from their separate perspectives. It is hard to think of everything in split seconds especially if your body is reacting and running on muscle memory. Survival instincts do not usually run through the rule book. JMHO

 

[HICKMAN]

I think you and Fargo are just coming at it from two different perspectives.

One from the letter of the law-- What can I legally get away with? The other from a tactical standpoint from within the law-- What is the best option for optimum survivability?

I not only want to survive... but to also make sure I'm not bubba's biatch for 20 years...

 

[the1kidd03]

well, that's only because I listen when Coach, ObiJon, Rhino, Glock21, Shay, Paul Gomez, Mercop and the experts here in THIS section of the forums speak on these issues.

and TFT

personally, I'll put my money on the lawyer over any cyber-expert

 

[Fargo]

well, that's only because I listen when Coach, ObiJon, Rhino, Glock21, Shay, Paul Gomez, Mercop and the experts here in THIS section of the forums speak on these issues.

And how many of the above listed are licensed to practice, much less teach, law in Indiana? This is a legal question, right?

Not a knock on them as firearms trainers, I have an immense deal of respect for them all in that regard. That said, being a firearms trainer in no way qualifies you to teach the law.

If I want to know the best way to create distance, retain my weapon, deploy it, etc I'll ask a firearms trainer because that is their area and they know a ton about it. If I want to know what the law requires or allows, I'll go to someone whose area that is.

Joe

 

[the1kidd03]

And how many of the above listed are licensed to practice, much less teach, law in Indiana? This is a legal question, right?

Not a knock on them as firearms trainers, I have an immense deal of respect for them all in that regard. That said, being a firearms trainer in no way qualifies you to teach the law.

If I want to know the best way to create distance, retain my weapon, deploy it, etc I'll ask a firearms trainer because that is their area and they know a ton about it. If I want to know what the law requires or allows, I'll go to someone whose area that is.

Joe

Seeing as how many of them are police, either prior or active and/or regularly work with police I'm willing to put my money on them knowing the nature of their arrests than an average cyber-expert

 

[churchmouse]

To all who have posted here. I have faced the charges you are discussing so adamantly. It was a self defense situation brought on by a traffic accident. Long detailed story for another time. I was facing felony's. Just as the1kidd03 said, I put my faith in a "Good" lawyer and the system. I am on the good side of things and enjoy my hobby/addiction of owning firearms. With first hand knowledge I will tell you, the mind, training and muscle memory take over and I intended to win. I did. All the way through the system. I won.
Your mind does not jump into the rule book or even think about the the down side of any actions that may be taken only how far do I have to go to win. I worried about the rest after the fact. I stood my ground, fought the good fight and I won that as well. You can shuck and jive this every way you wish. Face someone down and see what the hell you are made of then. Worry about the legality after.
I am not condoning a Cowboy mentality. I was not looking for that fight at that time.
Now, continue your discussion.

 

[the1kidd03]

To all who have posted here. I have faced the charges you are discussing so adamantly. It was a self defense situation brought on by a traffic accident. Long detailed story for another time. I was facing felony's. Just as the1kidd03 said, I put my faith in a "Good" lawyer and the system. I am on the good side of things and enjoy my hobby/addiction of owning firearms. With first hand knowledge I will tell you, the mind, training and muscle memory take over and I intended to win. I did. All the way through the system. I won.
Your mind does not jump into the rule book or even think about the the down side of any actions that may be taken only how far do I have to go to win. I worried about the rest after the fact. I stood my ground, fought the good fight and I won that as well. You can shuck and jive this every way you wish. Face someone down and see what the hell you are made of then. Worry about the legality after.
I am not condoning a Cowboy mentality. I was not looking for that fight at that time.
Now, continue your discussion.

Is it me, or do you change your avatar when you do underwear (daily)

 

[Fargo]

Seeing as how many of them are police, either prior or active and/or regularly work with police I'm willing to put my money on them knowing the nature of their arrests than an average cyber-expert

It has nothing to do with knowing the nature of their arrests. It has to do with having a grasp on a fairly complex area of the law to the point you are going to advise 3rd parties of a course of action based upon your knowledge of the statute, interrelated statutes, and caselaw.

I agree that cops usually have a better grasp than the average internet-hero, but that is far cry from me being willing to take legal advice from them.

Figuring out if you have PC for an arrest and giving legal advice are two very different things. That is why every arrest in Indiana is screened by a prosecuting ATTORNEY before any charge is filed or referred to a grand jury.

The police are not, and cannot be expected to be legal experts. That is why prosecuting attorneys exist. Ask any criminal lawyer about how many arrests are outright declined for filing. Heck, I've even seen a fair number where the judge found there wasn't even PC and released the person prior to any determination by the prosecutor.

Once again, if I want a weapons expert, I'll find someone who knows alot about weapons. If I want a legal expert, I'll find a lawyer.

Joe

 

[churchmouse]

Is it me, or do you change your avatar when you do underwear (daily)

Are we required to change unders????.................

 

[Fargo]

Are we required to change unders????.................

Touche'

 

[mercop]

And how many of the above listed are licensed to practice, much less teach, law in Indiana? This is a legal question, right?

Not a knock on them as firearms trainers, I have an immense deal of respect for them all in that regard. That said, being a firearms trainer in no way qualifies you to teach the law.

If I want to know the best way to create distance, retain my weapon, deploy it, etc I'll ask a firearms trainer because that is their area and they know a ton about it. If I want to know what the law requires or allows, I'll go to someone whose area that is.

Joe

I am not licensed but I bet I know more about keeping you out of court than a lawyer does. It is 99% of my game.

 

[jeremy]

And how many of the above listed are licensed to practice, much less teach, law in Indiana? This is a legal question, right?

Not a knock on them as firearms trainers, I have an immense deal of respect for them all in that regard. That said, being a firearms trainer in no way qualifies you to teach the law.

If I want to know the best way to create distance, retain my weapon, deploy it, etc I'll ask a firearms trainer because that is their area and they know a ton about it. If I want to know what the law requires or allows, I'll go to someone whose area that is.

Joe

THIS!!!!

I have spent far more money on advise from Lawyers than I have ever spent on Firearms and Training....

 

[Fargo]

I am not licensed but I bet I know more about keeping you out of court than a lawyer does. It is 99% of my game.

Not necessarily disagreeing but you do it in a different fashion than giving legal advice. You teach people how to have awareness, how to avoid bad spot, how to extricate, and how to respond with appropriate force. This all ties into doing things right, in a reasonable fashion and so staying out of legal trouble.

All those things are absolutely essential to staying out of court. The one thing I'm talking about is in addition to all that. If a person doesn't have a firm grasp on the law of their jurisdiction, all the tools a guy like you can give become much less useful.

What is legal one place, simply is not in another. You HAVE to apply all the tools a trainer like you can give within the framework of your jurisdiction.

I'm not poo pooing training, in fact I'm about as big a fan of what you do as there is and believe it is absolutely necessary if you are going to carry a weapon. However, also believe that you absolutely also have to have expert instruction in the law of your jurisdiction.

One isn't better than the other, nor is one really more important. They are to mutually required sides of the same coin.

Best,

Joe

 

[HICKMAN]

and TFT

personally, I'll put my money on the lawyer over any cyber-expert

well, they are all trainers... who just happen to be online here

 

[HICKMAN]

and Joe, I know what you are saying, but most of the trainers I've dealt with sit through the legal seminars and pass information down as part of what they teach.

That being said, I do want to sit in a gun law class with TFT.

Again, that was one of the things I liked about the training I was required to take for the Texas CHL, there was almost a whole day on the actual law of what we were allowed and not allowed to do.

 

[the1kidd03]

Are we required to change unders????.................

 

[the1kidd03]

and Joe, I know what you are saying, but most of the trainers I've dealt with sit through the legal seminars and pass information down as part of what they teach.

That being said, I do want to sit in a gun law class with TFT.

Again, that was one of the things I liked about the training I was required to take for the Texas CHL, there was almost a whole day on the actual law of what we were allowed and not allowed to do.

I'm giving up, you're on your own Hickman......"some men just want to watch the world burn" good luck

 

[HICKMAN]

I'm giving up, you're on your own Hickman......"some men just want to watch the world burn" good luck

don't know what you mean, but ok

edit: okay, I had to read up a few posts that I overlooked. I see what you mean.


to borrow from a friend:

You can be 100% right legally and still your legal counsel costs can run in the tens of thousands proving you weren't the one who brought a gun to a fist fight.

 

[the1kidd03]

don't know what you mean, but ok

edit: okay, I had to read up a few posts that I overlooked. I see what you mean.


to borrow from a friend:

"great minds think alike"

 

[mercop]

As I told officers during officer survival, you have to survive the street before you can worry about court.

And IMHO one of the biggest things that gets police officers and citizens alike assaulted and killed in hand wringing over what then cannot do vs what they can do. This leads to hesitation and hesitation kills.

Many altercations could be stopped with a decisive hammer fist to the face. Key word is decisive.- George