You Force on Force and SD trainers....

[esrice]

For my own edification, where are those three elements coming from? I don't recall them in the statute and I don't recall them from the caselaw.

I'm not personally aware of them in legal statutes or caselaw Joe. I'm familiar with them as general principles of personal defense.

Here are some links that speak to the 3 elements:

UseofForce.us: AOJP

Lethal Force

Cornered Cat - Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy

AOI - Ability Opportunity And Intent

http://books.google.com/books?id=7T...nepage&q=ability, intent, opportunity&f=false

 

[Fargo]

I'm not personally aware of them in legal statutes or caselaw Joe. I'm familiar with them as general principles of personal defense.

Here are some links that speak to the 3 elements:

UseofForce.us: AOJP

Lethal Force

Cornered Cat - Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy

AOI - Ability Opportunity And Intent

http://books.google.com/books?id=7T...nepage&q=ability, intent, opportunity&f=false

Just a thought, but I would be cautious about relying on anything but the actual legal elements of whatever jurisdiction you are in. Trust me, the prosecutor knows Indiana law, and doesn't give a damn about other jurisdictions or what some trainer says.

Also, be cautious of cops who try to teach the law based solely off their LEO training. While there are exceptions, ask any criminal attorney how well that usually works out. Guy has an excellent story about one of the NRA instructor courses he took and just what the officer teaching it thought versus what the law actually is.

Best,

Joe

 

[the1kidd03]

Just a thought, but I would be cautious about relying on anything but the actual legal elements of whatever jurisdiction you are in. Trust me, the prosecutor knows Indiana law, and doesn't give a damn about other jurisdictions or what some trainer says.

Also, be cautious of cops who try to teach the law based solely off their LEO training. While there are exceptions, ask any criminal attorney how well that usually works out. Guy has an excellent story about one of the NRA instructor courses he took and just what the officer teaching it thought versus what the law actually is.

Best,

Joe

That's what we have TFT for LOL

 

[esrice]

Just a thought, but I would be cautious about relying on anything but the actual legal elements of whatever jurisdiction you are in.

My use of those elements wasn't meant to imply that it was legal doctrine here in Indiana. Its simply something I use as a guide for determining the validity of such scenarios as presented in the OP. Its a "test" or "filter" of sorts. In FoF after action reports I use these elements to help articulate the decisions I make.

 

[Fargo]

That's what we have TFT for LOL

TFT gives a phenomenal overview of Indiana law in his general class and I highly recommend all of Guy's classes. Guy and I may quibble over bits of minutia but he is IMO one of the top guys in the state on handgun and use of force law.

Best,

Joe

 

[mercop]

Tough one. But he did ask for opinions. So here is mine. As soon as the guy asked for money it was at least a strong arm robbery which is a felony. To me the whole thing here is distance.

If he is outside of conversational distance I would have likely drawn my gun, given verbal commands and moved to strong cover.

If he was inside conversational distance I would have probably gone hands on.

The reason for both is that a reasonable person would conclude that if someone is robbing you even if they have not displayed a weapon that they are not going to let you walk just away.

My experience and expertise tells me that even though he may not have a weapon in sight there chances are near 100% that he has one and has not showed it because he does not want to expose himself to the armed robbery charge if he can avoid it.

To go a little deeper, most are of course answering this from the point of view as being alone. What if you had your wife or kid standing next to you?- George

 

[KG1]

AOI is used in alot of training type classes. I was first introduced to it in a Utah CCW class. What I basically got out of it was that it is a guideline for what you should be able to articulate as a defendant in a court of law in a self defense case as to whether it was justifiable.

Did the perpetrator have the Ability, Opportunity,and Intent to cause you serious bodily harm?

 

[HICKMAN]

That whole thread just reminds me of the conflict I have with Indiana not requiring training for the LTCH.

On one hand, I know how useful the information I got in training was and the requirement for someone to prove they could safely handle a gun and hit the broad side of a barn to obtain a Texas CHL.

On the other, we have the right to carry guaranteed by both the US and Indiana Constitution and nothing should be required to exercise it.

Why won't people take the time to understand the responsibility they bear?

 

[jdhaines]

AOI is used in alot of training type classes. I was first introduced to it in a Utah CCW class. What I basically got out of it was that it is a guideline for what you should be able to articulate as a defendant in a court of law in a self defense case as to whether it was justifiable.

Did the perpetrator have the Ability, Opportunity,and Intent to cause you serious bodily harm?

I feel like I remember Ayoob claiming that if you can meet AOI or AOJ that you would pretty much be safe in a self defense case not only in your own state but most foreign countries as well. It was as if he was saying if the person meets these, and you can reasonably articulate why he/she meets each of these criteria, then it is a clear case for justifiable use of force for self defense. I'm not saying that is right or wrong...but I seem to remember that was the reason for learning them and him teaching this method.

Any remembering the same thing? Maybe someone knows where I got that from and if I've mixed it up?

 

[churchmouse]

That whole thread just reminds me of the conflict I have with Indiana not requiring training for the LTCH.

On one hand, I know how useful the information I got in training was and the requirement for someone to prove they could safely handle a gun and hit the broad side of a barn to obtain a Texas CHL.

On the other, we have the right to carry guaranteed by both the US and Indiana Constitution and nothing should be required to exercise it.

Why won't people take the time to understand the responsibility they bear?

After frequenting some of the local ranges, I feel we need to have a mandatory firearms class before getting a LTCH. Same with drivers education etc. Makes sense to me but I have been known to be senseless.

 

[esrice]

Any remembering the same thing? Maybe someone knows where I got that from and if I've mixed it up?

I believe Ayoob was indeed where I first heard the concept.

Its concepts like AOJ/AOI and disparity-of-force that, while perhaps not legal doctrine in one's home state (as seen in Guy Relford's recent thread), they are a great framework for a justifiable defense.

 

[jsharmon7]

Why won't people take the time to understand the responsibility they bear?

This is precisely why INGO is such a great resource. Even if someone doesn't have the time or money at the moment to take a class, at least they can come here for great information and advice from lawyers, trainers, military, LE, and enthusiasts who have taken classes and have great experience. Hopefully people will better understand use of force and self defense just from some of the great topics that are presented here, until they can get into a class.

Thanks to all who take the time to respond and share their knowledge and experience!

 

[KG1]

I feel like I remember Ayoob claiming that if you can meet AOI or AOJ that you would pretty much be safe in a self defense case not only in your own state but most foreign countries as well. It was as if he was saying if the person meets these, and you can reasonably articulate why he/she meets each of these criteria, then it is a clear case for justifiable use of force for self defense. I'm not saying that is right or wrong...but I seem to remember that was the reason for learning them and him teaching this method.

Any remembering the same thing? Maybe someone knows where I got that from and if I've mixed it up?

Yeah I knew of Ayoob's theories about this kind of stuff and I know that some of the things that instructors use are based off of his doctrine and experience as an expert witness in court proceedings.

My example was the first time I had actually encountered it first hand and and it was discussed in the class that I took.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

This is precisely why INGO is such a great resource. Even if someone doesn't have the time or money at the moment to take a class, at least they can come here for great information and advice from lawyers, trainers, military, LE, and enthusiasts who have taken classes and have great experience. Hopefully people will better understand use of force and self defense just from some of the great topics that are presented here, until they can get into a class.

Thanks to all who take the time to respond and share their knowledge and experience!

Did i read some where on the forum some one wanted to do a video series on such things? I'd be down for helping out where I could on that project.

 

[Fargo]

That whole thread just reminds me of the conflict I have with Indiana not requiring training for the LTCH.

On one hand, I know how useful the information I got in training was and the requirement for someone to prove they could safely handle a gun and hit the broad side of a barn to obtain a Texas CHL.

On the other, we have the right to carry guaranteed by both the US and Indiana Constitution and nothing should be required to exercise it.

Why won't people take the time to understand the responsibility they bear?

Considering your demonstrated grasp of Indiana's use of force law, that is a really good question.

Joe

 

[Shay]

After frequenting some of the local ranges, I feel we need to have a mandatory firearms class before getting a LTCH. Same with drivers education etc. Makes sense to me but I have been known to be senseless.

I'll have to disagree with you on the mandatory class. Any training that would be required by the government could and would be used to deny or delay gun owners from carrying. States that do require training are not safer.

 

[Bunnykid68]

A few of you mentioned Ability. How in the world would I know if someone that just threatened to hurt me has the ability to do so. I could have 50 pounds on the guy threatening me but that does not mean I could defend myself against him in hand to hand combat.

 

[HICKMAN]

A few of you mentioned Ability. How in the world would I know if someone that just threatened to hurt me has the ability to do so. I could have 50 pounds on the guy threatening me but that does not mean I could defend myself against him in hand to hand combat.

pepper spray, got that tip from Rhino from ACT.

Most of us carry guns, knives and flashlights anyway.



(and I shot an unarmed assailant in the Force on Force class )

 

[HICKMAN]

Considering your demonstrated grasp of Indiana's use of force law, that is a really good question.

Joe

well, that's only because I listen when Coach, ObiJon, Rhino, Glock21, Shay, Paul Gomez, Mercop and the experts here in THIS section of the forums speak on these issues.

 

[esrice]

well, that's only because I listen when Coach, ObiJon, Rhino, Glock21, Shay, Paul Gomez, Mercop and the experts here in THIS section of the forums speak on these issues.

I think you and Fargo are just coming at it from two different perspectives.

One from the letter of the law-- What can I legally get away with? The other from a tactical standpoint from within the law-- What is the best option for optimum survivability?