FN Five-SeveN thoughts

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

Ballistic gel is one thing...and it tells a big tale. But go shoot some steel from 5-7 yards with a 5.7 and then shoot that same steel with a .40 or .45ACP. the difference is INCREDIBLE. And you'll never give the 5.7 a second thought....you'll stick the bigger rounds without a doubt.

Moving steel and other solid objects around has a lot to do with grain size. You would be remiss to assume that a rounds ability to damage tissue is positively correlated to its ability to move a steel target. Flesh is not steel.

 

[BigMoose]

The FN 5.7×28mm is one of those cartridges that creates a lot of stir.

I believe it works much better in the P90 and PS90 carbines then it does the pistol. Small maneuverable carbines that can hold a lot of rounds...

The 57 pistol just makes me wonder....

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

It's a neat novelty gun, but the caliber isn't practical for things like self defense IMHO. There are some decent SD loads out there, but they're pretty expensive. Many people buy the ever present FN branded Hornady ammo with the VMAX bullets and think it's a good carry cartridge...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDQmmqszUmY

It's really not. It doesn't penetrate nearly enough to be effective in my experience - even from a 10" barrel.

I would rather have 17 rounds of 9mm with a good load than anything offered for the 5.7. But it's a neat pistol, definitely cutting edge.

SS197 will penetrate 12 inches out of the pistol. It is out of the carbine where it lacks penetration due to the higher velocities it achieves. The VMAX fragments so violently (see: explodes) out of the PS90 that it only penetrates 7-9 inches. However, there are other rounds for the PS90 that achieve the requisite penetration depths.

That being said, SS197 out of the PS90 will absolutely devastate the internals of a hog or deer. I would assume it will do a number on a man as well. To make a broad generalization that the 5.7 platform isn't practical for self-defense indicates that you are unfamiliar with the wounding mechanisms of projectiles as witnessed by leading trauma surgeons, or are unfamiliar with the capabilities of the 5.7 platform, or both.

 

[MilitaryArms]

The 5.7 was designed around a specific round - the SS190.

The bullet was designed to penetrate soft armor and tissue, and it does it well. The problem is that unless you're military or LEO you can't buy the SS190 round.

The commercial rounds commonly available and most often used by people who buy these firearms is absolutely horrible for personal defense (the Hornady rounds). It is unable to penetrate more than 8" of soft tissue which falls far short of the 12" minimum and the 18" ideal penetration accepted by most people who study ballistics as being required for self defense.

Elite ammo makes a very expensive and often times unavailable load that makes the 5.7 suitable (still not ideal) for self defense. They make a LEO only duty round too, but again... it's not sold to civilians (which irks me to no end).

I think the FiveseveN is a very cool handgun and quite innovative... but you should approach it for self defense very cautiously. I know people like high-tech doo-dads but they're not always the best choice for defending ones life. Self defense is a very serious issue and I encourage folks to think long and hard about carrying something like the 5.7 with commercial ammo for SD.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with owning them, shooting them and enjoying them. I wouldn't discourage anyone from buying a 5.7 firearm - heck I own them myself. However, I do discourage people from carrying them for self defense. You should pick the absolute best firearm you can for that task and I firmly believe the FiveseveN isn't that firearm.

But that's just my opinion, it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[MilitaryArms]

To make a broad generalization that the 5.7 platform isn't practical for self-defense indicates that you are unfamiliar with the wounding mechanisms of projectiles as witnessed by leading trauma surgeons, or are unfamiliar with the capabilities of the 5.7 platform, or both.

I've made no such "broad generalizations", I've been quite specific about the loads I'm talking about.

I would love for you to provide detailed accounts of what trauma surgeons are finding with regards to VMAX 5.7 ammo performance.

I think it is you who is giving far more credit to a caliber that's not found much favor with agencies who have used it. Many people had high hopes for it, but it's not met with much success. The Secret Service has often been cited as an agency that issues it but in fact they stopped using the P90 some time ago.

Many police agencies that once adopted it have dropped it going back to either 9mm or .40 S&W.

If it's performance were so stellar, the trend would be the opposite.

The truth of the matter is that the cartridge is marginally effective with the right ammo (which few can get) and abysmal with most commercial ammo.

 

[MilitaryArms]

The following is a post written by an expert, Doctor Gary Roberts, with direct evidence from men in the military and law enforcement. Gary Roberts is a military vet and LEO, as well as having medical training and being recognized by the US Military, FBI, and many agencies as an expert in the subject of ballistics. All credit goes to him:

Small caliber PDW's like the MP7 and P90 are niche weapons that have very narrow and specific roles to play.

Below are comments specifically on the MP7 by a combat experienced senior SOF NCO currently serving in the U.S. military:

Quote:
”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.”

Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm:

Quote:
”Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications. If there is a single reason why these platforms are in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.””

A decorated, experienced SWAT officer at a U.S. LE agency that has had multiple OIS incidents with 5.7 mm FN P90's has written the following--note that his comments equally apply to the 4.6 mm MP7:

Quote:
”The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. The 5.56 is far more effective at getting the attention of men than 5.7 mm. This is not speculation. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been multiple BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more 5.7 mm or other small caliber PDW systems””

As a result of poor terminal performance, a large Federal agency is also no longer running P90’s like they used to. Likewise, some military units that tried small caliber PDW's in combat are procuring other options, like 9" .300 Blackout uppers to run on M4 lowers.

When a civilian LE agency chooses a full-auto system, significantly more time is needed for training. This increases costs, both in the amount of ammunition necessary to purchase, as well as the need to pay officers for increased time in training, rather than being in the field. Instead of a 1-5 shot NSR with an AR15 based system, with an MP7 each officer is now going to be routinely shooting 15-20+ rounds into each target both in training and in actual OIS incidents, thus the amount of ammo expended is going to be 4 times what would be used with an AR15 based system shooting any common CQB caliber like 5.56 mm, .300 Blackout, 6.8mm, or even 7.62x51mm. How is an LE agency going to afford four times more training ammo for a weapon system like the MP7 that needs to be always shot full auto and whose ammo is more expensive than other common calibers?

In the civilian realm, how is an LE agency going to explain to their Admin and media why they are now needing to shoot every suspect 15-20+ times? In addition, when you are having to shoot 15-20 rounds full-auto at every target, there is a higher likelihood that some of those rounds may miss the target; how is an LE agency going to handle the liability from the potential increased number of missed shots that can occur with a system that needs to be used full-auto like a "fire hose" in order to offer adequate incapacitation of threats?

With the data now available, a U.S. LE agency would have to be woefully ignorant or colossally stupid to purchase the MP7 (or P90) for SWAT use given the numerous weapon systems available for LE SWAT/CQB use that are both better and more cost effective than small caliber PDW's. If SBR's are desired, consider a 10-12" 5.56 mm using properly selected good quality barrier blind ammunition (see: 5.56 mm Duty Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums), 8-12" .300 Blackout uppers when appropriate LE ammo is finally released (6-12 months away); even better get 8-12" 6.8 mm's uppers, or if you want to have the best terminal performance go with the new group of 16" .308 rifles like the KAC SR25 EMC, LaRue Predatar (or OBR for precision use), or the FN Mk17/SCAR-H using appropriate ammunition (see: LE .308 Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums).

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

It's interesting how people cite the Ft. Hood shooting as an example of how effective the 5.7 round is.

43 people were shot, 13 died. Thank God he didn't have a 9mm, .40 S&W or a .45 ACP as the fatalities would likely have been higher.

Actually, nearly all who were shot in vital regions of their body died. All who rushed him were killed or severely incapacitated. Interestingly, Hasan was shot 5 times in the back with 9mm and never came close to dying. Officer Munley, who was shot twice (both leg shots) suffered a shattered femur (over 120 fragments) which severed an artery. She was fading out of consciousness when paramedics arrived and nearly died from blood loss. Hasan was using "your ineffective SS197" and SS192.

The national average for fatal gunshot wounds is around 30%. The biggest factor in whether or not a gunshot wound will be fatal is how quickly the victim receives medical attention. Hasan's percentage of victims shot that eventually died was right around the national average at 31%. That number seems kind of high though because the victims who were shot received immediate care even as the shootings were still occurring. Nearly everybody on a military base is trained in first aid.



Just a couple comments on "caliber size" in regards to effectiveness:

Let's start with the size of a 9mm bullet vs a 5.7mm bullet. The 5.7mm bullet is .224 inches wide (the same as NATO 5.56 which I'm sure everybody is familiar with). A 9mm bullet is .355 inches wide. That comes to one hundred thirty-one thousandths difference which is roughly equal to the size of the following underscore mark _. As you can see, we are dealing with very small measurements.

"But wait!" you say, "You're not taking into account the expansion of a modern hollowpoint round!" I didn't mention the fact that the 5.7mm hollowpoint is nearly an inch long and consistently tumbles after penetration either.

Dr. Di Maio, a forensic pathologist with over 40 years experience in his field is recognized by numerous independent sources as the nation's leading authority on gunshot wounds. Drawing on his experience and credibility, he illustrates how illogical the common obsession with bullet diameter and/or expansion is, and stresses shot placement and medical response time as being much more critical in the following quotes:

"One cannot examine the wounds in a body and say that the individual was shot with a hollow-point rather than a solid-lead bullet."

"Is there any situation in which a hollow-point handgun bullet will invariably stop an individual “dead in his tracks”? Yes, if the bullet injures a vital area of the brain, the brain stem, or the cervical spinal cord. But any bullet, regardless of style or caliber, injuring these organs will cause instant incapacitation. It is the nature of the structure injured, not the nature of the bullet, that causes the incapacitation."

"There is no objective proof that in real-life situations mushrooming of a bullet plays a significant role in increasing lethality or the “stopping power” of the bullet."

"In reality, the speed at which a wounded individual is transported to the hospital is a greater determining factor as to whether the individual will live or die than the type of ammunition used."

Just to further illustrate the point that "size doesn't matter" in common pistol calibers:

2 arrested in Ohio student's shooting death - CNN


Two men were arrested Sunday in connection with a shooting that left an Ohio university student dead and 11 other people wounded, police said.

<snip>

The shooting happened at a house where members of the Omega Psi Phi fraternity were holding a party, Hughes said.

<snip>

Authorities found multiple shell casings from two semiautomatic handguns, one a .40-caliber and the other a .45-caliber, Hughes said.



Also, the unofficial record for "most gunshot wounds survived" goes to a New York man that was shot 21 times by NYPD with the "9mm proven round."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...j95zaj2xzsUy4K

Error

A 23-year-old man has dodged death after being shot 21 times by police during a shoot-out at a New York street party.

<snip>

"I would say more than 20 gunshot wounds is a record," Dr Vincent DiMaio said.

"Of course, the real issue is where you get shot. One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

The following is a post written by an expert, Doctor Gary Roberts, with direct evidence from men in the military and law enforcement. Gary Roberts is a military vet and LEO, as well as having medical training and being recognized by the US Military, FBI, and many agencies as an expert in the subject of ballistics. All credit goes to him:

OMG, not this quote... lol

I have to leave but I will be back later to respond to this "expert"...

 

[MilitaryArms]

OMG, not this quote... lol

I have to leave but I will be back later to respond to this "expert"...

Looking forward to it.

Also, I look forward to your thoughts on why most every agency that adopted the 5.7 ultimately dropped it and went with something else. If it were such a spectacular performer, why did they dump the round?

While we're at it, can you please explain why, after so many years of being on the market, that no one else is making firearms chambered for 5.7? I mean, if it were such an amazing performer and civilians, LEO's and the military were clamoring for it, companies would respond with a flood of products that chambered it. Alas, nothing. You have one pistol, two rifles (AR57 and the PS90) and a handful of little known oddities that no one has heard of. Is it that everyone is ignorant of ballistics and firearms in general as I am, or could it be no one is impressed with the caliber?

I also look forward to these trauma surgeons reports that talk about how devastating the 5.7 is and why its superior to other calibers. I'm sure the departments who have ditched the 5.7 due to lackluster performance would enjoy reading it too, although they may not be lurking here.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Low_grain,

If you would also explain why you travel the internet searching for 5.7 threads, signing up on the boards, and defending the caliber with such vigor. I've seen you elsewhere doing the same thing, you apparently conduct regular searches for such discussions across the internet and within a day or two of a new thread being posted, you sign up on the board and start defending the 5.7. Once that thread dies so does your participation on that board.

The behavior seems highly suspect.

As for the good doctor, I've read your criticisms against him. Despite your claims he's a quack, he is highly respected in the LEO community and military community. You provide no evidence of your charges against him and it flies in the face of his credentials in the industry.

 

[Tydeeh22]

seriously though. the 45 gap has more people / police departments backing it. full-auto, i agree with you.

 

[Fenway]

Low_grain,

If you would also explain why you travel the internet searching for 5.7 threads, signing up on the boards, and defending the caliber with such vigor. I've seen you elsewhere doing the same thing, you apparently conduct regular searches for such discussions across the internet and within a day or two of a new thread being posted, you sign up on the board and start defending the 5.7. Once that thread dies so does your participation on that board.

The behavior seems highly suspect.

As for the good doctor, I've read your criticisms against him. Despite your claims he's a quack, he is highly respected in the LEO community and military community. You provide no evidence of your charges against him and it flies in the face of his credentials in the industry.

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

The bullet was designed to penetrate soft armor and tissue, and it does it well. The problem is that unless you're military or LEO you can't buy the SS190 round.

Incorrect. SS190 is readily available on the secondary market albeit at a stiff markup price. It is NOT illegal for civilians to purchase, own, and shoot SS190. There is no reason to purchase it though as EA's rounds outperform SS190 greatly.

The commercial rounds commonly available and most often used by people who buy these firearms is absolutely horrible for personal defense (the Hornady rounds). It is unable to penetrate more than 8" of soft tissue which falls far short of the 12" minimum and the 18" ideal penetration accepted by most people who study ballistics as being required for self defense.

Incorrect. Numerous videos are available showing sufficient penetration from the SS197 as per FBI protocol. SS197 is not the most powerful round 5.7 round, there's no arguing that, but it is more than capable of putting a man down (as are most rounds that hit critical areas). It has put down many hogs and deer and unfortunately many at Fort Hood as well as south of the border.

[ame="http://youtu.be/EDVjcm8A6ew"]http://youtu.be/EDVjcm8A6ew[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U40ArShS6M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U40ArShS6M[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERxZrzigoK4&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERxZrzigoK4&feature=related[/ame]

Elite ammo makes a very expensive and often times unavailable load that makes the 5.7 suitable (still not ideal) for self defense. They make a LEO only duty round too, but again... it's not sold to civilians (which irks me to no end).

EA has ammo that far surpasses FN factory ammo stocked pretty much continuously (Protector 1,2,3 and Exterminator rounds). Their best round - S4M or T6 - is offered on a limited basis as the demand is so high that they literally can't fill all the orders. The Leo-only round is not superior to S4M or T6 as a self-defense round. The Leo round is an ultra-high penetration round which will defeat most barriers. It gives up a bit of tissue damage performance for barrier defeating performance.

You should pick the absolute best firearm you can for that task and I firmly believe the FiveseveN isn't that firearm.

Which firearm do you think then is best for self-defense? (warning: this is a loaded question).

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

I've made no such "broad generalizations", I've been quite specific about the loads I'm talking about.

Are the following your words?

It's a neat novelty gun, but the caliber isn't practical for things like self defense IMHO.

That sounds like a broad generalization to me.

I would love for you to provide detailed accounts of what trauma surgeons are finding with regards to VMAX 5.7 ammo performance.

I never said I have detailed accounts from trauma surgeons regarding VMAX 5.7 ammo. I said, "To make a broad generalization that the 5.7 platform isn't practical for self-defense indicates that you are unfamiliar with the wounding mechanisms of projectiles as witnessed by leading trauma surgeons, or are unfamiliar with the capabilities of the 5.7 platform, or both."

I think it is you who is giving far more credit to a caliber...

I don't intend to give the caliber any more credit than I would other more common calibers. It is only as effective as the man (or woman) on the trigger. The same holds true for any aimed weapon.

The Secret Service has often been cited as an agency that issues it but in fact they stopped using the P90 some time ago.

That is incorrect. You are reciting internet hearsay. The P90 is in fact in service in several departments of the USSS.

Many police agencies that once adopted it have dropped it going back to either 9mm or .40 S&W.

If it's performance were so stellar, the trend would be the opposite.

More internet hearsay and specifically originating from a few specific forums that worship the resident dentist/ballistician as if he is the Messiah himself.

In fact the 5.7x28mm platform is used in more countries today than it ever has been before.

The truth of the matter is that the cartridge is marginally effective with the right ammo (which few can get) and abysmal with most commercial ammo.

What do you mean by marginally effective. Are you saying that if an officer with a Five-seveN hits a perp in the CNS he will only be marginally stopped?

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

The following is a post written by an expert, Doctor Gary Roberts, with direct evidence from men in the military and law enforcement. Gary Roberts is a military vet and LEO, as well as having medical training and being recognized by the US Military, FBI, and many agencies as an expert in the subject of ballistics. All credit goes to him:

His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums, but that doesn't count for anything. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, the 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I mentioned earlier, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.


In regards to the comments by Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb, they have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings), so their opinions have been formed by what they have read and heard about the caliber; nothing more, nothing less.

 

[MilitaryArms]

His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums, but that doesn't count for anything. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, the 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I mentioned earlier, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.


In regards to the comments by Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb, they have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings), so their opinions have been formed by what they have read and heard about the caliber; nothing more, nothing less.

That was the cut-n-paste I was expecting.

Now that I've confirmed your identity there's little point in continuing the discussion. You'll be gone soon.

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

Also, I look forward to your thoughts on why most every agency that adopted the 5.7 ultimately dropped it and went with something else. If it were such a spectacular performer, why did they dump the round?

My thoughts are you are regurgitating internet hearsay. Please provide a link to a departmental statement or news report of a 5.7mm weapon being "dumped" by an agency.

I have a couple verifiable reports of the earliest agencies that adopted the 5.7 and their comments on it:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/a...ls.aspx?ID=309

I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.

<snip>

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

<snip>

If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

-- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)



http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/...andy-wall.html

Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."



http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...cal-firepower/

S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.

“I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”

While we're at it, can you please explain why, after so many years of being on the market, that no one else is making firearms chambered for 5.7? I mean, if it were such an amazing performer and civilians, LEO's and the military were clamoring for it, companies would respond with a flood of products that chambered it. Alas, nothing. You have one pistol, two rifles (AR57 and the PS90) and a handful of little known oddities that no one has heard of. Is it that everyone is ignorant of ballistics and firearms in general as I am, or could it be no one is impressed with the caliber?

So many years on the market? Compared to what? 45acp? 9mm? Relatively speaking, the 5.7 is a baby compared to other common calibers. And it wasn't even available to the public for many years.

There are rumors of a major manufacturer looking into the caliber. We will see. FNH is also particularly nasty with licensing etc. I also don't think many major gun manufacturers want to take the P.R. hit of making another "cop killer" gun.

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

Low_grain,

If you would also explain why you travel the internet searching for 5.7 threads, signing up on the boards, and defending the caliber with such vigor. I've seen you elsewhere doing the same thing, you apparently conduct regular searches for such discussions across the internet and within a day or two of a new thread being posted, you sign up on the board and start defending the 5.7. Once that thread dies so does your participation on that board.

The behavior seems highly suspect.

It is true I have contributed to several forums on this subject, but I am not the only one that does it. I also haven't contributed to a forum in this manner since back in 2011 if I remember correctly.

I have found that my contributions are welcomed by those generally interested in learning more about the platform. Those with bias against it are obviously quite agitated as I bring facts that contradict their indoctrination received via the tooth doc.

Why would my behavior seem suspect? What have I to gain? I just like helping people that are confused about the issue.

 

[LOW_Grain_HIGH_Pain]

That was the cut-n-paste I was expecting.

Now that I've confirmed your identity there's little point in continuing the discussion. You'll be gone soon.

Of course it is a cut-n-paste. Do you know how many of these discussions I have been in? They always go the same way. You certainly haven't confirmed my identity. Why would I be gone soon? I may just hang around for a while if you or others are willing to learn and have open minds.

 

[Armed-N-Ready]

Wow, it's like a couple of women fighting over a pair of shoes.

I love the 5.7.
I hate the 5.7.
You're a poopy head.
Takes one to know one.

Bored