Defensive Knife Class - Indianapolis, June 28th

[iChokePeople]

What if I stick it in his eye?

We're still talking about a knife, right?

 

[iChokePeople]

I think for us regular folk, the chance of being able to close on someone (who has any ability at all) and get that kind of wound made is not likely. But think already being a clinch, maybe your're being choked so the bad guy has committed his limbs. You get ahold of your knife and cut him off of you. A situation like that with a sufficiently sharp blade and goes from unlikely to maybe.

He's choking me?! I'm getting a little "anxious" just thinking about it.

 

[Jackson]

We're still talking about a knife, right?

Depends on how frisky I'm feeling. All's fair in love and knife fighting.

 

[rhino]

What if I stick it in his eye?

That would really smart. Might get him to let go of you too. You never know.

Might be a good idea to just keep cutting whatever you (on your assailant) until he lets go, then break contact if you can, and then take whatever measures are necessary to minimize further damage to yourself.

 

[rhino]

He's choking me?! I'm getting a little "anxious" just thinking about it.

Most of us are not seeking that kind of "attention" on a regular basis because we like it!

YOU are weird! I am quite normal.

 

[bwframe]

GROUND FIGHTING
WHY I HATE IT (BUT STILL TRAIN IT)

Gabe Suarez - CEO Suarez International

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?ca=3fca5f91-0419-49ab-964c-3aa848a2585b&c=0f12ff20-b740-11e3-a36c-d4ae528eb986&ch=0fc51110-b740-11e3-a43d-d4ae528eb986

 

[cedartop]

GROUND FIGHTING
WHY I HATE IT (BUT STILL TRAIN IT)

Gabe Suarez - CEO Suarez International

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?ca=3fca5f91-0419-49ab-964c-3aa848a2585b&c=0f12ff20-b740-11e3-a36c-d4ae528eb986&ch=0fc51110-b740-11e3-a43d-d4ae528eb986

Don't agree with point 3, but there is some good stuff here and it shows to me that Gabe is still learning. That is a good thing.

 

[jdhaines]

Szorn makes a comment I hear often about the highest percentage training tactics etc. His statement as written works. With very little change though it can morph into the more dangerous idea that what works for the most people is what we should all be learning. Least common denominator training is great for NRA classes and carbine classes with 39 guys per instructor. If we are each seeking the best answer it may not be the common denominator. An eye gouge is great at working across spectrums. Boxing...maybe not. With my attributes my time is better spent working clinching than knife fighting or taekwondo. If you are willing to put in the hours you can rise above the average Joe tactics. If ICP mentions arm bars it is because he has spent many hours rolling. Telling a general audience not to work them may do a disservice to the two people who would take your advice to heart and go join a bjj gym. Part of the problem is getting the information out there and letting people decide where they fall on the spectrum of effort expended.

If someone admits they won't train again all year, teach them an eye gouge and work integration. If someone will put in work, expose them to all the good stuff. (Redzone, etc.)

 

[Brian@ITC]

The primary reason I don’t spend much time on here is because most of you don’t really want to learn how to defend yourselves. Rather, you just want to sit here and “share” what you know or think you know. Too bad most of you don’t spend more time training than surfing the net. The amount of posts some of you haveclearly shows what some of you do…

I’ve said it before and I will continue to say it… truth is that most of you probably haven’t trained much or at all, and if you have it is with someone “mainstream”. We have trained extensively in many areas including with some mainstream instructors, we do not agree with most doctrines. We teach against the grain because mainstream “handgun tactics and martial arts” are not as effective as what you may want to believe. For the most part people on want to train in feel good methods, and then want to sit back and talk smack about something they have no idea about. Most of you forget that I have staff that are in LE and have had a lot of training too, and they fully support our doctrine because they realize just how flawed most self-defense training (handgun and unarmed) is.

They brought me on staff at Self Reliance Outfitters to do a lot of things and because they value my teaching abilities as they have been through some of my classes. Dave Canterbury is not going to associate himself with some “hack” because he has reputation to maintain. Just because you haven’t trained with us and don’t/won’t understand where we are coming from on most things doesn’t MAKE me a hack. It just means that you have a limited mindset and possibly limited training. Maybe, you are afraid of learning the truth about certain things in your training and would rather sit behind the monitor and bash people. I have chosen to “challenge” certain teachings in my person training time and have found a number of things to not be true or smart in a number of areas. I have known Dave since before he was on Dual Survival and he knows that I am legit and that I know what I'm doing. I've taught a class at one of his events...

If most of you truly understood the serious flaws of the fundamental principles that defensive handgun training is based upon, you might actually come to the realization that most handgun tactics are really just short of suicidal. But, you won’t see the truth no matter what I say. I can prove to you just how silly it is, but odds are that you will still believe what makes you feel good. Most people won’t accept the truth no matter how right you are. All I care about in my training and self-defense preparations is what is likely to work and why. As well as what isn’t good to work and why. I’ve explored those things extensively and that is our foundation from which we teach. I could go along with the “flow” of what is being taught by the mainstream people, but I don’t agree with it, therefore in good conscious, I cannot.

But because I refuse to give in to tactics that actually place you in more danger than by just running away, people want to bash me when they don’t really fully understand the dynamics of a situation. If you did, then you wouldn’t be bashing me. Pointing out the flaws in training has to be done or people wouldn’t know that the training is not good for most self defense situations.

Quite a few people from INGO have taken the home defense class and there weren’t any bad comments. These people have room to talk only because they have taken our training and have met me personally.

His "full body jab" video is almost comical.

I don't know anything about the instructor of the course discussed but I can tell you that the Jab video is a poor example of combat-effective skills. Punching is a learned skill that requires months to years to master.

Most people cannot punch even after years of training. That is why it takes several punches to get the job done, IF they get it done. Bruce Lee had a one inch punch and I don’t see you making fun of him. Truth is that he was simply rediscovering something that had been around for hundreds of years. Just because you all don’t understand something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. Sadly, most of you will never get up off your butts and try it out. Rather, you continue to stroke your own egos by sitting here bashing me. I am a doer and not a talker. I’ve put thousands of hours of training time in so I have a much better leg to stand on than probably 99% of you here.

“Are you going to dramatically fly backwards for him?”

Until you are holding the bag, please refrain from childish comments. I will be more than happy to let you hold the bag and then I expect you to come back here and submit a formal apology.
The most difficult thing to do is to learn how to punch and kick effectively. And, most people stink at it and that is why you can learn to “take” their punches. What we do is not flashy, but it works. And that is why I don’t use any other method of punching. I’m not about “fighting” someone. I want to do as little as possible with optimal results and this jab is more powerful than most punches in boxing, MMA, Krav Maga, etc. When I find something that is better, I will be teaching it regardless of what it is.

“Really though, only if he hits it hard enough. I want to see what the technique looks like at full speed. With a pad it should be tolerable.”

Yeah, it is tolerable… but it still sucks. Are you willing to hold the bag to find out Stop on by the store from 8am-5:30pm and sign a waiver form and you can hold the bag. We will get your INGO user id on camera so people know who you are and we will tape the entire thing. And if you’re not willing to stop by, then don’t talk about this topic which you know nothing or little about. When should I expect to see some of you? My guess is… you won’t come by because you might just be wrong and will be embarrassed in front of your so called peers.

You see people; it is your ego keeping you from learning something of value here. There are two kinds of people… Those who bash what they don’t understand. And those who “bash” because they fully understand what is going on. Unfortunately, most people fall under the first category because they don’t/won’t train realistically. I’m not afraid to stay the course and take ridicule because one day you might and I say might see the light.

“So... I just watched this video. If his claims were true, he would be a boxing champion. His claims seem odd. In a properly executed boxing punch, the power comes right from the ground through your entire body in somewhat the same manner he describes (though at speed, with power instead of a push). Yet, very strong, very skilled boxers exchange full-power shots for 16 rounds without either going to the hospital. What is the secret these boxers are missing?”

Simply put, boxing is a sport and they are not “real effective” at hitting or the fight would be over very quickly. Boxers are missing the body dynamics I am using. If they were to make a slight change in body alignment, then fights wouldn’t last long at all and boxing wouldn’t have the following that it does. How many people would go to a paid fight that lasts 10 seconds?
Most of you are quick to make comments based upon pure ignorance. Yet you believe that you can get your gun out in a fight, hit, and immediately reduce your threat. And you don’t see the reality that it probably isn’t going to happen? Not to mention the insanity of the basic principles of most defensive handgun tactics…

The real hacks are those who sit in comfort in their chairs behind the monitor bashing us when they don’t really have any idea what we do or how we are different. If you cannot understand the basic flaws in most training, then you are probably going to fail the real world situations and continue to believe things that are just not so. The hacks train with people with impressive credentials and then think they know something because they have taken training.

Those of us who are willing to step out of our comfort zones to learn something that may go against what we were taught are the ones who have the right mindset. A lot of trainers have an LE background and it is no secret that most LEO’s cannot shoot well. Yet somehow they are qualified to teach you how to defend yourself with a handgun. Just because someone has a LE OR Military background doesn’t mean that they are qualified to teach anything.

Most of you have criticized my handgun knowledge, unarmed skills, and now my knife skills… hmmm…. I guess that you know more about all of this than me. Interesting… and you call me the hack? Most of you probably cannot throw a half-ass effective punch yet have the nerve to criticize me… You guys are just silly.

I have trained students from just about every big name school out there, people with LE and military experience and they have learned a lot from me. In fact, I just got teaching PPO’s/EP and LEO’s in the Dallas area on church security and they learned a lot from me and are asking me to come back. Not to mention having been in SWAT and USCCA magazines. Just over two weeks ago I trained two EP guys with a high profile client, and they did research on my company and chose to train with us over other trainers. And… beginning on June 10[SUP]th[/SUP] I’m going to have my own show on a well-established YouTube show with over 2 million viewers per month. In addition, I have people who are asking about becoming an instructor of ours from around the globe. Not too bad for a hack…

Here is where I tell you that we have a 100% MBG yet I haven’t seen most of you in training simply because you have your uninformed opinion. So, do you really have any leg to stand on when it comes to any of this? No, you don’t. And most of you won’t take any action other than to continue to talk crap without experiencing our training and that’s exactly why I don’t waste my time on discussion forums any more. All I do on forums any more is post classes and let you all continue to live in your own little world. Those who are interested in actually learning will come and training of regardless of what most of the keyboard experts here have to say. What I say makes sense to some people. Usually people who are willing to let go of their ego and are more concerned about what works and what doesn’t.

I have provided enough information on YT for free that should make you question your training. Yet most of you are too full of yourself to receive the information I have given you freely. You would rather argue things than to train on them and figure them out.

I only have something to offer you if you are willing to learn. What we do is not feel good training. If you feel good after the training then we have done something wrong.
To those of you who know that something is missing in training, then come and see us. To the rest of you, keep doing what you are doing… After all, it is your life on the line. I hope that you are right…

 

[Rookie]

TL;DR

 

[rhino]

I see that self-awareness is still in critically short supply in the big, brutal world in which we live.

Good luck with all that, dude.

 

[iChokePeople]

And the only reason you're not making millions teaching professional boxers and MMA fighters how to punch is... your commitment to the purity of your techniques? Your fear that this tremendous power would be used for evil?

Yeah, it is tolerable… but it still sucks. Are you willing to hold the bag to find out Stop on by the store from 8am-5:30pm and sign a waiver form and you can hold the bag. We will get your INGO user id on camera so people know who you are and we will tape the entire thing. And if you’re not willing to stop by, then don’t talk about this topic which you know nothing or little about. When should I expect to see some of you? My guess is… you won’t come by because you might just be wrong and will be embarrassed in front of your so called peers.

I'm all the way on the other side of the state from you and don't make it to Richmond. Ever teach classes in Indy? I'd be happy to hold the pad, and if your total body jab is impressive, I'd be happy to attest to it. If it's impressive, I'd also sign up to learn it. I hold pads frequently enough that I'm not willing to spend 5-6 hours driving to confirm what I believe is true, that your jab and punch are less impressive than those of the guys for whom I regularly hold pads. Indy, we could probably work that out. If I had any reason to believe that you actually had some hidden knowledge that has somehow escaped the boxing community, the MMA community, the thai boxing community, etc, I'd be COMPLETELY willing to drive to Richmond to learn it. Sadly, though, I'm pretty skeptical. I'm sure it's just my lack of experience and my desire to hide behind the keyboard.

 

[cosermann]

I usually just lurk around threads like this, but boy, lots of ad hominem argumentation going on there. Clearly not acquainted with many of the posters in this thread. I've personally trained with at least 5 of them during my sheltered life (maybe 6, I don't know all the screen names).

Current and former law enforcement, corrections, and military all represented here. Not just people sitting on their butts.

 

[iChokePeople]

If someone admits they won't train again all year, teach them an eye gouge and work integration. If someone will put in work, expose them to all the good stuff. (Redzone, etc.)

The eye "gouge" (/jab, in my terms -- to me, "gouge" is different, but that's all semantics) is MONEY. Very easy to learn, effective the vast majority of the time. You have to learn what to do NEXT, of course ("integration", as you said), but the technique you and Josh teach in Managing Confrontations is money. Worth the price of admission.

 

[jdhaines]

Brian, thank you. You have done more for my initial argument by making your post than my words ever could have.

I'll await anything from you done with more than demonstration energy.

 

[Jackson]

Until you are holding the bag, please refrain from childish comments. I will be more than happy to let you hold the bag and then I expect you to come back here and submit a formal apology.
The most difficult thing to do is to learn how to punch and kick effectively. And, most people stink at it and that is why you can learn to “take” their punches. What we do is not flashy, but it works. And that is why I don’t use any other method of punching. I’m not about “fighting” someone. I want to do as little as possible with optimal results and this jab is more powerful than most punches in boxing, MMA, Krav Maga, etc. When I find something that is better, I will be teaching it regardless of what it is.


Yeah, it is tolerable… but it still sucks. Are you willing to hold the bag to find out Stop on by the store from 8am-5:30pm and sign a waiver form and you can hold the bag. We will get your INGO user id on camera so people know who you are and we will tape the entire thing. And if you’re not willing to stop by, then don’t talk about this topic which you know nothing or little about. When should I expect to see some of you? My guess is… you won’t come by because you might just be wrong and will be embarrassed in front of your so called peers.

You see people; it is your ego keeping you from learning something of value here. There are two kinds of people… Those who bash what they don’t understand. And those who “bash” because they fully understand what is going on. Unfortunately, most people fall under the first category because they don’t/won’t train realistically. I’m not afraid to stay the course and take ridicule because one day you might and I say might see the light.



Simply put, boxing is a sport and they are not “real effective” at hitting or the fight would be over very quickly. Boxers are missing the body dynamics I am using. If they were to make a slight change in body alignment, then fights wouldn’t last long at all and boxing wouldn’t have the following that it does. How many people would go to a paid fight that lasts 10 seconds?
Most of you are quick to make comments based upon pure ignorance. Yet you believe that you can get your gun out in a fight, hit, and immediately reduce your threat. And you don’t see the reality that it probably isn’t going to happen? Not to mention the insanity of the basic principles of most defensive handgun tactics…

I believe the bolded sections above were in response to me. I quoted the rest because it appeared relevant.

I rarely refuse an invitation. I will accept this invitation and hold the pad. I am happy to have it video taped. I can arrange to bring a camera myself. I want to make a few statements and conditions first:

1. I agree. I am ignorant. I am not a martial artist, or a boxer, or anything remotely similar. I don't have any significant experience. You'll see no claims of knowledge from me anywhere that I recall.

2. Because of number 1, I don't think you'll find too many criticisms from me in the thread. Everything I asked was an honest question. When it comes to punching, I tend to think of boxers as the experts. I am genuinely interested in Thai Jitsu and its origins, as I've never heard of it. That's not surprising, as I've probably not heard of many martial arts.

3. If I come out, it needs to be on a weekend. I work day-time hours on week days and my work location is too far away to be there before 5:00. If we can do it on a weekend, I'll be happy to come out. Are you referring to the Emerson Ave location mentioned on the website?

4. I will only come out if we can do this with a friendly disposition and a cordial demeanor. I am not interested in coming out if either of us will have a 'something-to-prove' attitude or intends to start an argument. I don't have time for that kind of silliness. If you want to get together and have a friendly discussion/demonstration about your methods, I'm happy to do it.

You mentioned that you came to your beliefs through testing and experience. I am genuinely interested in testing this out and seeing the results. I don't know that I have said anything worthy of an apology. So, you'll likely not get one from me. What you will get is a friendly, interested individual who has no ego or issue coming and seeing the reality of the situation. I will be happy to provide an honest and unbiased (as best I can) account of what I experience. If it hurts, I don't have too much pride to admit it.

You may PM me to work out the timing and details.

 

[Jackson]

Due to the holiday I may be available Monday. I will have to check with some people to be sure. Let me know if you'll be in then. If not, we can arrange a weekend.

 

[szorn]

Szorn makes a comment I hear often about the highest percentage training tactics etc. His statement as written works. With very little change though it can morph into the more dangerous idea that what works for the most people is what we should all be learning. Least common denominator training is great for NRA classes and carbine classes with 39 guys per instructor. If we are each seeking the best answer it may not be the common denominator. An eye gouge is great at working across spectrums. Boxing...maybe not. With my attributes my time is better spent working clinching than knife fighting or taekwondo. If you are willing to put in the hours you can rise above the average Joe tactics. If ICP mentions arm bars it is because he has spent many hours rolling. Telling a general audience not to work them may do a disservice to the two people who would take your advice to heart and go join a bjj gym. Part of the problem is getting the information out there and letting people decide where they fall on the spectrum of effort expended.

If someone admits they won't train again all year, teach them an eye gouge and work integration. If someone will put in work, expose them to all the good stuff. (Redzone, etc.)

If I understand your statement correctly, in that the high percentage tactics should be specific to the demographic then I would definitely agree. Training should be specific to the needs of the individual and specific objectives. In other words what is applicable for average joe civilians most likely won't be applicable to LEOs or military personnel. That said, the focus should be on the high percentage tactics for their specific objectives. I also agree that if people have the time, energy, and desire they should be encouraged to seek out long-term comprehensive training to enhance their knowledge and skills. However, I believe that long-term training should be based on the desired objectives and it should be built on the sound fundamentals of those high percentage tactics. One of my instructors has a saying that supports your closing thoughts- "Fighting first, systems second." In other words IF surviving explosive violence is the objective people should be given those fundamental skills first and then IF they choose to continue long-term training they can be given more comprehensive skills. The unfortunate reality is that the majority of average people and even many LEOs won't invest time and energy into long-term training maybe because they truly don't have the time or energy to invest.

Steve

 

[szorn]

Most people cannot punch even after years of training. That is why it takes several punches to get the job done, IF they get it done. Bruce Lee had a one inch punch and I don’t see you making fun of him. Truth is that he was simply rediscovering something that had been around for hundreds of years. Just because you all don’t understand something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. Sadly, most of you will never get up off your butts and try it out. Rather, you continue to stroke your own egos by sitting here bashing me. I am a doer and not a talker. I’ve put thousands of hours of training time in so I have a much better leg to stand on than probably 99% of you here.

As I previously stated I don't know you so I am not commenting about you personally nor about your specific courses, but I am commenting about the specific "technique" of punching that you espouse as being effective. The reason people can't punch even after years of training is simply because it's an unnatural learned skill that is not conducive to survival. It's not natural or instinctive. There has even been research to show that while cavemen would have likely fought with clenched fists, they did NOT punch.

In regards to Bruce Lee, he was a highly trained martial artist that invested years into mastering his skills. He spent countless hours conditioning his fists on a wooden dummy so that he could punch effectively without fear of injury. His 1-inch punch was based on the common Chinese principle of Fa-Jing or explosive energy. I am very familiar with the principle and use it frequently in my martial arts training. However, due to the length of time it takes to acquire such skill and it's limited application it's not something I would teach to people under the guise of "self-defense" or "combatives". The fact is that it's considered a complex skill and we all know what happens to complex skills during the common adrenal dump caused during chaotic and explosive violence. I teach a close-contact forearm and elbow technique similar to this with the same results...knocking my partner backwards a number of feet. However, it's more of a parlor trick than anything else. Once a scenario goes dynamic (and the person isn't just standing there) it becomes more and more difficult to properly apply the complex body-mechanics at the appropriate time to get the same results. All of that said, generally we should not base the effectiveness of a technique on what a highly skilled person can do, instead we should base the effectiveness of the technique on what the average person can do with only minimal training.

Combat-effective skills should be based on primal movement patterns being easy to learn, easy to retain, and most importantly easy to use when the spit hits the fan. Unfortunately punching in and of itself doesn't fit that criteria, not counting the incorporation of a complex and esoteric principle like Fa-Jing.

Steve

 

[ddavidson]

How did the "demonstration" go?