Defensive Knife Class - Indianapolis, June 28th

[rhino]

All true. As you know, kali students DO train to hit specific points, but most thugs do not spend a lot of time with kali gurus.

There's an analogy to handgun projectiles here. What will eventually end a life won't necessarily incapacitate rapidly. Rapid incapacitation might be less overlooked if people realized that once you accomplish that, you have . . choices. And time.

Just like that Jeep jab.

I'm old, weak, crippled, and still pretty dang fat, but I can jeep jab with the best of 'em.

 

[iChokePeople]

Also, my earlier comments about the lack of actual "knife fights", where both parties knew that it was a knife fight, do not apply to the Viray clan.

 

[rhino]

Also, my earlier comments about the lack of actual "knife fights", where both parties knew that it was a knife fight, do not apply to the Viray clan.

I'm the designated loser. Kentucky women know their way around a blade almost as well as tiny Filipino surgeons. I never stand a chance.

 

[Glock21]

I'm the designated loser. Kentucky women know their way around a blade almost as well as tiny Filipino surgeons. I never stand a chance.

That made me giggle.

 

[iChokePeople]

Also, I shouldn't single out the 'thugs' -- the overwhelming majority of us aren't willing to put in the time and effort to reach that level of skill, whether with the blade, the stick, the body, or the gun. Josh and Mike do a nice job on that topic in their Managing Confrontations class.

 

[jdhaines]

Since we're veering off topic, I'll add that the biomechanical cutting, defanging the snake, etc theory has some holes in it. It isn't the place to argue pro or con, but I'd highly recommend doing some due diligence on the topic before devoting much time in it. Its another thing that seems good but convienently can't be trained full on and seems to have as many war stories proving it wrong as right. For most of us our time is better spent on things we can actually practice against another living breathing thinking and acting opponent in which we can measure progress.

On that line let's all remember to work on what is probable rather than possible. 80/20 rule and all that.

 

[iChokePeople]

I'd only add that defanging the snake isn't just about knives or cutting. Some of it can be practiced. Taking a kali stick to the hand and arm is an eye-opening experience, and is definitely effective. People don't always drop what they're holding, but I've never seen anyone take even an 80%-ish shot to the fingers/back of the hand/wrist and go right on using it like nothing happened. Pretty soon, someone else here (who I won't name, I'll leave that to him, if he chooses) will be able to confirm or deny that. Rockhopper probably already can.

Reading my own post makes me feel the need to clarify -- I agree that defanging the snake is not the optimal plan, and it requires the right distance, timing, and a whole lot of hard-earned skill that most people won't have. Experts might pull it off, but most shouldn't bet on it.

 

[iChokePeople]

Since we're veering off topic, I'll add that the biomechanical cutting, defanging the snake, etc theory has some holes in it. It isn't the place to argue pro or con, but I'd highly recommend doing some due diligence on the topic before devoting much time in it. Its another thing that seems good but convienently can't be trained full on and seems to have as many war stories proving it wrong as right. For most of us our time is better spent on things we can actually practice against another living breathing thinking and acting opponent in which we can measure progress.

On that line let's all remember to work on what is probable rather than possible. 80/20 rule and all that.

Oh, it also occurred to me that you're completely ignoring the INGO logic: Unless you're willing to come over and let me slash at your tendons and femoral artery, it is clearly valid for self-defense.

 

[szorn]

I don't know anything about the instructor of the course discussed but I can tell you that the Jab video is a poor example of combat-effective skills. Punching is a learned skill that requires months to years to master. Even then it is not an ideal option for surviving violence, especially if one intends to be able to access a firearm or knife at any point during the alteration. The potential for injuring the hand is too high to be thought of as a default skill, especially when there are other more viable and less risky options available.

I can honestly say, in my humble yet experienced opinion, other than a good Martial Art to practice, defending yourself with a Knife as opposed to a handgun is not the most prudent choice.

Honestly we could also say that defending yourself with a gun is not the most prudent choice either when there are almost always other options to include awareness, avoidance, and general escape strategies. Guns and knives are lethal force options and the truth is that most situations a person will face in their life will require less-than-lethal responses, as mentioned by Cedartop.

What so many tend to forget is that there are people out there that choose not to own or carry firearms for whatever reason. That's their choice. It may also be a choice made for them by their state or jurisdiction. Does that mean they should not have other options to protect themselves? While knives may not be considered the ideal option by some, others may have a different perspective. Let's look at some advantages of knives over guns- easily available and affordable, no permits necessary, don't require ammo, can be carried in most states and jurisdictions (depending on length, styles, etc. but generally less restrictive than firearms), no knife grabbers trying to have them banned, and probably other aspects that I am forgetting right now.

as for learning how to knife fight, i'll pass, never bring a knife to a gun fight!

There is learning to knife fight and then there is learning to fight with a knife. They are two different animals. If the goal is surviving explosive violence knowing how to fight with a knife will be more important than knowing how to "knife fight" which rarely happens in the modern world. The saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight!" is based on an assumption that it will be a duel of some kind. Unfortunately, reality is another story. In the 80's Dennis Tueller showed how quickly an average knife attacker could close on an armed officer and severely injure or kill the officer before he could draw and fire his sidearm. While this simple research is often taken out of context and blown out of proportion, it's still relevant to the fact that a knife-wielding attacker is not to be underestimated regardless of how skilled you think you might be with a firearm.

Since we're veering off topic, I'll add that the biomechanical cutting, defanging the snake, etc theory has some holes in it. It isn't the place to argue pro or con, but I'd highly recommend doing some due diligence on the topic before devoting much time in it. Its another thing that seems good but convienently can't be trained full on and seems to have as many war stories proving it wrong as right. For most of us our time is better spent on things we can actually practice against another living breathing thinking and acting opponent in which we can measure progress.

Well said! I am fond of pointing out that the knife is a lethal force tool like the firearm. If we wouldn't "shoot to wound" with the gun why would we "slash to wound" with the knife? The biomechanical cutting concept seems to stem from the martial arts mentality where things that look cool tend to be more popular than things that get the job done.

I'd only add that defanging the snake isn't just about knives or cutting. Some of it can be practiced. Taking a kali stick to the hand and arm is an eye-opening experience, and is definitely effective. People don't always drop what they're holding, but I've never seen anyone take even an 80%-ish shot to the fingers/back of the hand/wrist and go right on using it like nothing happened.

This may be true during training or even MA sporting events but I wouldn't bet my life on a hand or arm shot stopping a determined attacker in real life where adrenaline, drugs, rage, and other factors come into play. There are plenty of reports of broken limbs (elbows & knees) going unnoticed during real altercations, until after the fact. This has even been seen in a couple of MMA events where the fighter kept going until he finally realized he was unable to stand on the broken limb.

Steve

 

[iChokePeople]

This may be true during training or even MA sporting events but I wouldn't bet my life on a hand or arm shot stopping a determined attacker in real life where adrenaline, drugs, rage, and other factors come into play. There are plenty of reports of broken limbs (elbows & knees) going unnoticed during real altercations, until after the fact. This has even been seen in a couple of MMA events where the fighter kept going until he finally realized he was unable to stand on the broken limb.

Steve

I generally agree, and if you'd quoted/read just a little more of what I said... But still, I think people can also go too far in throwing out valid options because of a couple of insane, extreme, extremely unusual examples. Is there a possibility that I'll snap a guy's elbow and he'll keep right on coming? Sure, there is. What are the odds? Not good. I won't throw out the arm bar as an option due to the fact that some very small part of the population won't be affected. The odds are GREATLY in my favor. There are examples of people who've been shot MANY times and kept on going -- so we should discount the gun as an option? Would I base my defensive plan on defanging the snake? Definitely not. Would I take that shot if it presented itself? Depends on the situation, and I'd definitely take a head or eye shot over it, but I certainly wouldn't skip it just because there's a CHANCE that the guy with the knife wouldn't drop the knife any more than I'd skip a good opportunity for a good hard nut shot because a few people won't really respond to that.

As Josh said, 80/20. Don't throw out good options because of the 1%, even if the 1% got lots of attention and millions of youtube hits.

 

[Jackson]

This is what I envision when I think of a knife attacker. Video is age restricted. So may not post correctly. Non-spanish speakers can roll ahead to the 4 minute mark to see the beginning of the action. I didn't see much opportunity for the Five Finger Death Punch to stop this dude.

[video=youtube;75RTkGbiJpk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk

 

[Jackson]

I believe in this very strongly. To that end I'll use an ITC video to prove the point (though others would work):

Basic Jab (Whole Body Strike) - YouTube

So... I just watched this video. If his claims were true, he would be a boxing champion. His claims seem odd. In a properly executed boxing punch, the power comes right from the ground through your entire body in somewhat the same manner he describes (though at speed, with power instead of a push). Yet, very strong, very skilled boxers exchange full-power shots for 16 rounds without either going to the hospital. What is the secret these boxers are missing?

And what is Thai Jitsu?

 

[cedartop]

Since we are already in full on thread drift mode, I will take this chance to address the issue of biomechanical cutting and incapacitation. In theory I love the idea. It really makes sense and in my mind should be foolproof. Unfortunately theory and reality often don't mesh. To quote the quotable Yogi Berra “In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.” In support of that I offer this post by Paul Sharp from 4-20-2011 on TPI.

Dealing with an EDP tonight, always a good time. He had walked into one of our hospitals earlier today, stating he was hearing voices. He left before they could see him. I went to a call of a bloody guy in the street at 2100hrs. Sure enough, my partner and I get out with a bloody guy in the middle of the street, screaming. He has vertical and horizontal cuts the length of his arms, his forearms are filleted to the bone, the meat is coming out, his arms should be toast. He's walking towards us, hands outstretched and empty, screaming, "kill me, ****ing kill me!!". We go hands on with him, I think I can feel the bones in his forearm! The meat is gone. Blood all over everything, I get a rear naked and sink it. He pulls my arm off of his neck, with his frikkin' filleted to the bone forearm. So much for biomechanical cutting!? The cuts on his arms did nothing to hinder his grip strength. This is by far one of the top 5 fights I've been involved in to date. I choked him completely unconscious twice, he woke up within seconds. After the first time, I knew better so when I KO'd him the second time we got the cuffs on before I let go. The EMTs gave him 2 shots of narco, did absolutely nothing. At the hospital, 2 more sedative shots did nothing. He broke the restraints, again with his filleted arms, finally they gave him the same drugs they give folks going in for surgery. He went out then woke up when they put the catheter in?!

The docs stitched up everything they could, stapled the rest. Still no results on the tox screen. His buddies showed up at the ER and said he's been doing a lot of bath salts lately and it makes him "go off". Yeah, it sure does. He's not a big guy, 5'9", maybe 170-180. At one point in our little scrap, he did a pushup with me on his back, with a RNC fully sunk, him making all those weird sputtering choking noises. It was crazy.

Bottom line; next guy starts spouting off about the effectiveness of biomechanical cutting to me? I'm going to punch him in his frikkin face! I have bruises on my arms from this guy squeezing my arm trying to pull my arm off his neck while I'm sinking the choke.

Tasers rock...... Until the guy reaches over and pulls the prongs out! I realize he shouldn't be able to do that because A) taser said so and B) he was biomechanically cut all to hell...... But, he did.

That being said, as noted by ICP you can always find an extreme to disprove the rule. We have all heard of the stories of people taking multiple gunshots that should have proven fatal and often do, yet for the moment they keep coming. This story by Paul is definitely an extreme. If it was just some random story on the internet I probably wouldn't even believe it. Considering the source though I know it to be true. Where does that leave us on this issue? Not really sure, you may have to make up your own mind. For me it means I will train to defend against a knife, but not turn my attention to "knife fighting".



__________________

 

[Jackson]

I liked this video, too.
[video=youtube;37XiSn81oFw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37XiSn81oFw[/video]

 

[iChokePeople]

That's an excellent discussion of the problem. ^^

 

[chezuki]

This is what I envision when I think of a knife attacker. Video is age restricted. So may not post correctly. Non-spanish speakers can roll ahead to the 4 minute mark to see the beginning of the action. I didn't see much opportunity for the Five Finger Death Punch to stop this dude.

[video=youtube;75RTkGbiJpk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk

Would have been a perfect scenario for a Tazer. Assuming they don't carry them, and with the clarity of hindsight, those officers waited too long to deploy deadly force. Once they did, they were limited as other officers had moved behind knife-guy into the line of fire.

I liked this video, too.
[video=youtube;37XiSn81oFw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37XiSn81oFw[/video]

Ugh. Now I'm even more terrified of a knife attack than I already was.

 

[iChokePeople]

S Where does that leave us on this issue? Not really sure, you may have to make up your own mind. For me it means I will train to defend against a knife, but not turn my attention to "knife fighting".

__________________

i won't speak for anyone else, just for me. There are very few things that are 100%. Guns, no. Trains, no. Falling out of an airplane without a parachute, no. Tasers, knives, chainsaws, sharks, cobras, no, no, no, no, no. People have survived all of those things. I won't throw out a valid option because some small number of people, or people in some small number of incidents, have survived or continued to attack... I'll just have other options. I won't put all of my eggs in any one basket. Not dim mak, not defanging the snake, not BJJ, not boxing or knife fighting or Muay Thai or even the soul-stealing 1911. I'll continue to study MANY of those things in the hopes that if I try to use one and it doesn't work, I'll have several other options to try. In the end, if all of the others fail, I hope I can learn Brian's dim mak death punch as a last resort, but even that probably isn't 100%.

this whole concept is the reason I get such amusement out of the guys who say, "I don't need to _________, I have a gun", or I'd just choke him or armbar him or...)

 

[cedartop]

i won't speak for anyone else, just for me. There are very few things that are 100%. Guns, no. Trains, no. Falling out of an airplane without a parachute, no. Tasers, knives, chainsaws, sharks, cobras, no, no, no, no, no. People have survived all of those things. I won't throw out a valid option because some small number of people, or people in some small number of incidents, have survived or continued to attack... I'll just have other options. I won't put all of my eggs in any one basket. Not dim mak, not defanging the snake, not BJJ, not boxing or knife fighting or Muay Thai or even the soul-stealing 1911. I'll continue to study MANY of those things in the hopes that if I try to use one and it doesn't work, I'll have several other options to try. In the end, if all of the others fail, I hope I can learn Brian's dim mak death punch as a last resort, but even that probably isn't 100%.

this whole concept is the reason I get such amusement out of the guys who say, "I don't need to _________, I have a gun", or I'd just choke him or armbar him or...)

As you know I totally agree with that. The limiting factor for me and probably a lot of others, time. So we still find ourselves prioritizing.

 

[rhino]

I'm going to count on my Dim Mak Touch of Death to carry me through all unfortunate circumstances.

I wonder what would happen if I touched myse






<thud>

 

[iChokePeople]

****. He did it at full speed. AT FULL SPEED.