Gun Community Myopic and Asleep. Ideas for action needed.

[88E30M50]

I get it that private businesses have the right to choose who they serve but what was the outcome when a baker decided that making a wedding cake for a couple that went against his religion was something that he didn’t want to do? His private business decision was not his to make when he decided to discriminate against a segment of society.

How is this different? If Walmart had said that it was Ok with gays in their store as long as they didn’t hold hands or otherwise display their orientation, do you think that the gay community would respond with ‘Well, I’m not a hand holder, so I’m good with that’?

Maybe we need to treat this as a civil rights issue.

 

[88E30M50]

A while back, there was a pro-Islam campaign that portrayed every day people as being of the Islam faith. The point of it was to help people understand who it was that they had been pointing to when saying that the Islamic faith was evil. By portraying members of the Islamic faith as neighbors, doctors, coaches and all other types of people that we respect, it helped to remove the idea that members of the Islam faith were the boogey men that they had imagined them to be.

We need to do this with pro-gun EDC folks. Right now, a large segment of the population thinks that pro-gun equates to skin heads, racists and wanna-be Wicks. We need to help people understand that we are friends, neighbors and average people that choose to take responsibility for our safety.

Lots of us carry. By forcing us to CC, the anti-gunners are making sure that the message that normal people carry does not spread. They want us to keep the guns under wraps so that the only exposure to them that the undecided see are the negative stereotypes that the media has built up.

 

[JettaKnight]

I am amazed that we have people here on INGO that do not realize that it is not about OC.

Depends on the viewpoint -
For gun-grabbers, it's stepping stone to victory.
For gun-owners, it's a loss of freedom (if you like OC), manifested in the practical form of an inconvenience.
For store owners, it's a way to placate soccer moms, and mitigate conflict.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I get it that private businesses have the right to choose who they serve but what was the outcome when a baker decided that making a wedding cake for a couple that went against his religion was something that he didn’t want to do? His private business decision was not his to make when he decided to discriminate against a segment of society.

How is this different? If Walmart had said that it was Ok with gays in their store as long as they didn’t hold hands or otherwise display their orientation, do you think that the gay community would respond with ‘Well, I’m not a hand holder, so I’m good with that’?

Maybe we need to treat this as a civil rights issue.

Depends on the viewpoint -
For gun-grabbers, it's stepping stone to victory.
For gun-owners, it's a loss of freedom (if you like OC), manifested in the practical form of an inconvenience.
For store owners, it's a way to placate soccer moms, and mitigate conflict.

Sorry for jumping in late, so forgive me if this sentiment was expressed already...

I tend to agree with the analogies you're trying to make 88 but there are big differences. As JK points out, soccer moms have grown comfortable with seeing homosexuals being themselves in public now. They have not done so, seeing some "operator" roaming the store with an AR at low ready.

 

[WebSnyper]

I get it that private businesses have the right to choose who they serve but what was the outcome when a baker decided that making a wedding cake for a couple that went against his religion was something that he didn’t want to do? His private business decision was not his to make when he decided to discriminate against a segment of society.

How is this different? If Walmart had said that it was Ok with gays in their store as long as they didn’t hold hands or otherwise display their orientation, do you think that the gay community would respond with ‘Well, I’m not a hand holder, so I’m good with that’?

Maybe we need to treat this as a civil rights issue.

As someone else stated, should be Constitutional Rights even beyond civil rights, but I agree, though the 2nd Amendment applies to govt not private individuals as far as the infringement as far as I am aware. The root of the argument regarding discrimination is that we, as folks exercising our 2nd Amendment rights, are not considered a "protected group" when it comes to discrimination, though the 2nd Amendment does (though how effectively is at question) protect us from govt infringement of the right.

Not a lawyer, so happy to have those who are jump in on this area specifically.

A while back, there was a pro-Islam campaign that portrayed every day people as being of the Islam faith. The point of it was to help people understand who it was that they had been pointing to when saying that the Islamic faith was evil. By portraying members of the Islamic faith as neighbors, doctors, coaches and all other types of people that we respect, it helped to remove the idea that members of the Islam faith were the boogey men that they had imagined them to be.

We need to do this with pro-gun EDC folks. Right now, a large segment of the population thinks that pro-gun equates to skin heads, racists and wanna-be Wicks. We need to help people understand that we are friends, neighbors and average people that choose to take responsibility for our safety.

Lots of us carry. By forcing us to CC, the anti-gunners are making sure that the message that normal people carry does not spread. They want us to keep the guns under wraps so that the only exposure to them that the undecided see are the negative stereotypes that the media has built up.

I agree with this. A campaign by NRA or others, regarding "I carry and here's why" showing "every day people" could accomplish this (though I think this has been done in the past, more if it would be good).

 

[2A_Tom]

I have had a discussion with Open Carry Indiana several years ago.

Their opinion was that since we do not have Constitutional Carry of handguns they will carry AR's openly to bring awareness to the issue.

I told them I thought they were going to cause more harm than good.

Case in point, today!

 

[IndyMP]

I share your frustration by the hapless push back from the 2nd amendment / gun community but I think it's more a case of not knowing WHAT to do rather than being UNWILLING to do something. With the NRA in full hunker down mode with their own problems we seem leaderless and just kind of drifting. Additionally, your points about the other groups sitting the fight out because they aren't directly affected are also spot on but again, our side isn't lifting a finger to make our case. Our side is absolutely horrid when it comes to the kind of messaging and vocal expression that is required to move the needle in a modern world. Personally, I'm writing letters to the editor and I'm pressing local TV news directors but I have no way of knowing if it makes a difference. We seem to be on a path to things no one wants and will want even less when it gets here.

 

[printcraft]

I get this, but I struggle with the fact that private entities (non govt) property owner's have rights as well. Now, that said, I don't want to support these businesses, and I also definitely don't want them doing what Dick's Sporting Goods did and actively lobbying for gun control, but they do have rights on who to do business with (think baker and the customer who demands a cake for example) and they do have rights on admittance to their property. Of course, the left stomps all over these rights when forcing business owners to serve "protected groups", etc.

That said, I guess when these businesses make this political, and make these big media statements, they definitely are open to peaceful protest, etc as part of the process.

Oh, they absolutely have the option and right to not bake the cake. It's their call.
They should have the right (as should everyone) to refuse service to any person or entity for any reason.
And just like the baker the .gov should NOT be involved in any way shape or form, stand or fall on their own business merits.
The media and moms demand attention/ gun confiscation lobby are behind these moves.

What does squat lifting and bro curls have to do with this?

Freaking iphone autocorrect, its really a hinderance.

 

[DFacres]

Because OCing in Indiana is SO RARE that the public doesn't care, it never really did. Let's not be too overly dramatic about the effects of private businesses asking it's customers to cover their sidearms.

That works well for us here in IN to cover, but what about states that only have OC? You now have to disarm & leave your protection in your vehicle

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Oh, they absolutely have the option and right to not bake the cake. It's their call.
They should have the right (as should everyone) to refuse service to any person or entity for any reason.
And just like the baker the .gov should NOT be involved in any way shape or form, stand or fall on their own business merits.
The media and moms demand attention/ gun confiscation lobby are behind these moves.






Freaking iphone autocorrect, its really a hinderance.

I have an Android, so I don't know if it's an option on an iphone, but I have my autocorrect and "type ahead" (where it offers "suggestions" on what it "thinks" you want to type) disabled. I found it annoying and distracting. I'll type what I want you freaking machine. Mind your own business!

 

[cbhausen]

Sorry for jumping in late, so forgive me if this sentiment was expressed already...

I tend to agree with the analogies you're trying to make 88 but there are big differences. As JK points out, soccer moms have grown comfortable with seeing homosexuals being themselves in public now. They have not done so, seeing some "operator" roaming the store with an AR at low ready.

I really get sick and tired of having to correct people about what low ready with a rifle means. On a sling muzzle up OR down but not being held is NOT “low ready” so please stop misusing the term:

https://specialtactics.me/home/2016/8/17/debate-1-low-ready-vs-high-ready

Follow the link, look at the pictures and read the descriptions. Do that in a public place with a rifle and you probably deserve to get shot.

And I acknowledge the dorks carrying ARs into Starbucks and Walmart didn’t help things but that’s not what got these policies implemented. Mass shootings are.

 

[SarahG]

Just finished reading through this. I'm all for advocating for rights in whatever form people see fit, but just wanted to reiterate please don't leave stuff around stores for employees to restock. Most retail workers already have it bad enough due to customers yelling at them (I know because I get yelled at a fair amount) and don't have any control over their employer's policies. Something like that would only make gun owners look worse instead of normalizing gun ownership and helping people to understand why this issue is important. I think the main thing that would help with gun rights at this point is outreach. Most people don't like guns because they're scared of them, so let's take the fear away and invite them to come shooting!

 

[wingrider1800]

I have an Android, so I don't know if it's an option on an iphone, but I have my autocorrect and "type ahead" (where it offers "suggestions" on what it "thinks" you want to type) disabled. I found it annoying and distracting. I'll type what I want you freaking machine. Mind your own business!

+1

 

[mcapo]

Just finished reading through this. I'm all for advocating for rights in whatever form people see fit, but just wanted to reiterate please don't leave stuff around stores for employees to restock. Most retail workers already have it bad enough due to customers yelling at them (I know because I get yelled at a fair amount) and don't have any control over their employer's policies. Something like that would only make gun owners look worse instead of normalizing gun ownership and helping people to understand why this issue is important. I think the main thing that would help with gun rights at this point is outreach. Most people don't like guns because they're scared of them, so let's take the fear away and invite them to come shooting!

This is rather wise. The left has done an excellent job of portraying guns owners as a collective group of zealots. "We" need to do a better job of refocusing the narrative on solving the societal problem leading the mass shootings; not the restriction of Constitution rights. Sixty years ago you could run down to many a store and pick up a M1 carbine and stacks of 30 round mags for low low prices. No one ran around shooting up the local fair...when I was in high school, rifles often hung in the back of truck windows - no one shoot up the school. My brother-in-law even re-blued a gun in shop class....times...they have changed.

 

[thompal]

Thanks for your reply. But.....

I think we can all agree that Laws start in public opinion. Enough public opinion that "those nasty people should not be allowed to open carry or concealed carry for that matter" is what greases the wheels against us.

A strong reaction signalling we will not give up our rights, or as they say in the boardroom, push back, should be considered.

How about taking a selfie of your empty holster and a full shopping cart in front of the service desk, where you leave the cart with a note. "This is what I would have been buying this week"?

Push back, not lay down.

Public opinion matters.

A more direct approach along the same lines: Since signs don't have the force of law, just OC like you normally would while shopping. After you've got your cart mostly filled, make sure to walk by a manager or LP person. If they ask you to leave, say something along the lines of "ok, but it's a shame you won't let me buy these products." And leave the cart with the manager to deal with.

 

[thompal]

It's always been the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Why would it be different now? Sure, the media is pushing this agenda and rousing up those of simple minded thinking.
We as gun owners, 2nd Amendment supporters, hunters, sportsmen, need a strong voice, clear thinking, and able to dislodge the socialists.
This is just the base root of a larger problem this country is breeding.
It's time to VOTE. No more excuses and lazy behavior.
This country is in trouble but we CAN help.

Vote for WHO, exactly? Name a presidential candidate who will stand up for the Constitution as written.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I really get sick and tired of having to correct people about what low ready with a rifle means. On a sling muzzle up OR down but not being held is NOT “low ready” so please stop misusing the term:

https://specialtactics.me/home/2016/8/17/debate-1-low-ready-vs-high-ready

Follow the link, look at the pictures and read the descriptions. Do that in a public place with a rifle and you probably deserve to get shot.

And I acknowledge the dorks carrying ARs into Starbucks and Walmart didn’t help things but that’s not what got these policies implemented. Mass shootings are.

I thought some of these idiots were carrying their long guns in their hands, were they not? (That was the impression I got from the idiot in the Walmart in Springfield). It is those situations to which I was referring.

 

[cbhausen]

I thought some of these idiots were carrying their long guns in their hands, were they not? (That was the impression I got from the idiot in the Walmart in Springfield). It is those situations to which I was referring.

I haven’t seen pictures of anyone assuming a tactical position with a rifle in a big box store unless they were actually shooting someone. Some dork walks around with the rifle in both hands and shouldered I can see law-enforcement or a citizen dropping him like a sack of ****. And justifiably so. And yes, I’m really in a crappy mood about all the stuff so sorry if I got a little preachy.

 

[2A_Tom]

Vote for WHO, exactly? Name a presidential candidate who will stand up for the Constitution as written.

I can name you 20 or so that definitely not.

 

[farmdog]

Just finished reading through this. I'm all for advocating for rights in whatever form people see fit, but just wanted to reiterate please don't leave stuff around stores for employees to restock. Most retail workers already have it bad enough due to customers yelling at them (I know because I get yelled at a fair amount) and don't have any control over their employer's policies. Something like that would only make gun owners look worse instead of normalizing gun ownership and helping people to understand why this issue is important. I think the main thing that would help with gun rights at this point is outreach. Most people don't like guns because they're scared of them, so let's take the fear away and invite them to come shooting!

If we make more work for the local employees, from stocker to general manager, all we do is alienate people from our own community. They will be less inclined to agree with us as we have made our statement at their expense.
A possible alternative is to make an itemized list of what you intended to buy, including the price. Take that list with the total dollar amount that they will no longer receive from you, and send it to corporate headquarters. Include the name of your particular store, and send them a copy as well. It takes time, but does not abuse those employed by the store to make our point.
The general manager will be much more likely to chime in, and the message will have been sent by us as well.