A friendly discussion of OC vs CC

[sj kahr k40]

Can't argue with OC as a way to "get guns out of the closet" but we have INGO OC parades for that.

When are these INGO OC parades? I'd like to go to one of those

 

[clgustaveson]

When are these INGO OC parades? I'd like to go to one of those

???????

Indianapolis Gay Pride 2010 - Indy Pride 2010 - Gay Pride Indianapolis 2010 - Indiana Gay Pride Festivals - Circle City Pride 2010 - Indy Pride Parade

I won't be there...

 

[sj kahr k40]

???????

Indianapolis Gay Pride 2010 - Indy Pride 2010 - Gay Pride Indianapolis 2010 - Indiana Gay Pride Festivals - Circle City Pride 2010 - Indy Pride Parade

I won't be there...

most on INGO wont either

 

[clgustaveson]

I don't mind the "friendly"... That's just not the OC I enjoy...

 

[Dbusby2009]

I prefer CC because if you do get in an altercation where you need your fire arm. you already have one thing on your side if you are CCing because you have the "element of suprise" on your side and the person wont know you have a gun until you pull it on them. Now on the other hand if you open carry the person could come at you from behind and attempt to gain control of your weapon and use it against you. Im sure there are pro's and con's to both CC and OC but thats just my opinion!
AT THE END OF THE DAY ITS THE LAST C THAT COUNTS AND THATS CARRY

 

[lovemachine]

I think someone should host a CC parade. And march around downtown.

Now the question is, will anyone notice that you're carrying?

 

[ATM]

...the "element of suprise..."

...come at you from behind and attempt to gain control of your weapon and use it against you....

Im sure there are pro's and con's to both CC and OC but thats just my opinion!

If you had actually read this or one of the many similar threads first, I doubt you'd have stated the two most classic yet commonly held non-reasons ever.

 

[clgustaveson]

I prefer CC because if you do get in an altercation where you need your fire arm. you already have one thing on your side if you are CCing because you have the "element of suprise" on your side and the person wont know you have a gun until you pull it on them. Now on the other hand if you open carry the person could come at you from behind and attempt to gain control of your weapon and use it against you. Im sure there are pro's and con's to both CC and OC but thats just my opinion!
AT THE END OF THE DAY ITS THE LAST C THAT COUNTS AND THATS CARRY

Never would happen with OC because it's one dumb mother fycker that tries to fight a guy with an 8" number.... Plus I have a gun!

 

[ATM]

I think most people just believe that concealing makes sense on some tactical level.

I find it amusing when they can't reasonably explain or defend some of these assumptions.

 

[finity]

If you had actually read this or one of the many similar threads first, I doubt you'd have stated the two most classic yet commonly held non-reasons ever.

Actually I think it's only one non-reason.

The "element of surprise" is a valid argument for CC.

It may be true that the first "surprise" came from the BG when you were initially confronted. If he did not kill you immediately by taking you by surprise then you now have the opportunity to use your own "surprise" against him as he most likely won't suspect that you can resist with lethal force. To him, if he can't see it, it doesn't exist.

Also, action will beat reaction everytime. The BG is already in his OODA loop & has decided to not shoot/stab you immediately (the A). He is now waiting on you to comply before deciding on his next action. If you draw & shoot (the A in your OODA loop) he has several steps to go through before he takes his A step (shooting back). Thats how it's possible to beat an already drawn gun.

Just because you were surprised initially doesn't mean you can't take back the initiative. In that respect the surprise of CC is a huge advantage. The BG seeing your gun before you have a chance to react will have already been processed by his OODA loop. At the least, he will already be on heightened awareness of what you are going to do, negating at least some, if not most, of your possible defensive actions. At worst, he'll just shoot you.

Of course, that is assuming that the BG isn't deterred initially by the sight of the gun. So we do go back to the concept that OC is, overall, a deterrent. Without the deterrent effect, there is no real advantage to OC in a SD scenario. Notice I said "SD scenario". There are other advantages but none (other than a little faster draw) are particularly useful in SD.

The reason is a valid concern but the reason it is a non-reason is because it just doesn't happen that often. the reason why it doesn't is what is really open for debate.

 

[ATM]

If you are lucky enough to be considered a non-threat in the middle of a crime which allows you to draw from concealment and this somehow surprises or catches the attacker off guard, I'd suggest going ahead and shooting them.
You obviously got a silly one with no sense of self-preservation.

If you don't shoot him, he'll likely shoot himself or fall off a cliff before too long.


I wouldn't, however, suggest modeling a plan around this sort of oddity.

 

[lovemachine]

So basically what your saying is to "just carry"

Actually I think it's only one non-reason.

The "element of surprise" is a valid argument for CC.

It may be true that the first "surprise" came from the BG when you were initially confronted. If he did not kill you immediately by taking you by surprise then you now have the opportunity to use your own "surprise" against him as he most likely won't suspect that you can resist with lethal force. To him, if he can't see it, it doesn't exist.

Also, action will beat reaction everytime. The BG is already in his OODA loop & has decided to not shoot/stab you immediately (the A). He is now waiting on you to comply before deciding on his next action. If you draw & shoot (the A in your OODA loop) he has several steps to go through before he takes his A step (shooting back). Thats how it's possible to beat an already drawn gun.

Just because you were surprised initially doesn't mean you can't take back the initiative. In that respect the surprise of CC is a huge advantage. The BG seeing your gun before you have a chance to react will have already been processed by his OODA loop. At the least, he will already be on heightened awareness of what you are going to do, negating at least some, if not most, of your possible defensive actions. At worst, he'll just shoot you.

Of course, that is assuming that the BG isn't deterred initially by the sight of the gun. So we do go back to the concept that OC is, overall, a deterrent. Without the deterrent effect, there is no real advantage to OC in a SD scenario. Notice I said "SD scenario". There are other advantages but none (other than a little faster draw) are particularly useful in SD.

The reason is a valid concern but the reason it is a non-reason is because it just doesn't happen that often. the reason why it doesn't is what is really open for debate.

 

[machete]

Open Carry gives you many other tactical advantages: faster draw, larger guns, and deference.

if you look at the peashooters that cc people have to conceal in Summer it makes you wonder why you even have a gun...

if theres a fullsize badguy i want a fullsize gun...

if cc were such a good idea cops would do it...

 

[clgustaveson]

Actually I think it's only one non-reason.

The "element of surprise" is a valid argument for CC.

It may be true that the first "surprise" came from the BG when you were initially confronted. If he did not kill you immediately by taking you by surprise then you now have the opportunity to use your own "surprise" against him as he most likely won't suspect that you can resist with lethal force. To him, if he can't see it, it doesn't exist.

Also, action will beat reaction everytime. The BG is already in his OODA loop & has decided to not shoot/stab you immediately (the A). He is now waiting on you to comply before deciding on his next action. If you draw & shoot (the A in your OODA loop) he has several steps to go through before he takes his A step (shooting back). Thats how it's possible to beat an already drawn gun.

Just because you were surprised initially doesn't mean you can't take back the initiative. In that respect the surprise of CC is a huge advantage. The BG seeing your gun before you have a chance to react will have already been processed by his OODA loop. At the least, he will already be on heightened awareness of what you are going to do, negating at least some, if not most, of your possible defensive actions. At worst, he'll just shoot you.

Of course, that is assuming that the BG isn't deterred initially by the sight of the gun. So we do go back to the concept that OC is, overall, a deterrent. Without the deterrent effect, there is no real advantage to OC in a SD scenario. Notice I said "SD scenario". There are other advantages but none (other than a little faster draw) are particularly useful in SD.

The reason is a valid concern but the reason it is a non-reason is because it just doesn't happen that often. the reason why it doesn't is what is really open for debate.

How long do you think it takes to cycle OODA loop? I have been in the woods, heard a noise, turned spotted a rabbit and shot... the OODA cycle is not really something that occures in steps or phases, much like fight or flight.... you are prepared to take either action, you don't sit for 30 seconds deciding if you are going to run.

OC typically doesn't offer any advantages to an SD situation because they typically don't arise. But when they do, there are two advantages that I can think of: Manifest knowledge - you know that the assailant is a lethal threat, and Target Theory - You know they are targeting your weapon, weapon focus will cause them to pay more attention to your gun than you...

All of this can be used to your advantage in a SD situation.

 

[finity]

How long do you think it takes to cycle OODA loop? I have been in the woods, heard a noise, turned spotted a rabbit and shot... the OODA cycle is not really something that occures in steps or phases, much like fight or flight.... you are prepared to take either action, you don't sit for 30 seconds deciding if you are going to run.

OC typically doesn't offer any advantages to an SD situation because they typically don't arise. But when they do, there are two advantages that I can think of: Manifest knowledge - you know that the assailant is a lethal threat, and Target Theory - You know they are targeting your weapon, weapon focus will cause them to pay more attention to your gun than you...

All of this can be used to your advantage in a SD situation.

I don't think it takes 30 seconds to cyle through but there are distint steps (hence the OODA designation abreviating those steps) that take a finite amount of time. Since the BG doesn't know you're carrying he doesn't know he needs to react to your decision (since you have already reached the A step) so he is already behind the curve. He has to see you move (O), realize that you are drawing a gun (O), decide he is going to defend himself from your attack (D) & THEN act (A). By that time you have hopefully already shot him since your finite time span started way before his even if it is only less than a second. It works even better if you can feign another type of movement to distract them from the draw.

How do you think people are able to take a BG's gun from them & use it against them?

Weapon focus will do nothing but take some analysis out of his Orient step. He already knows you have a gun so he fairly certain you are going for it.

 

[ATM]

If this was a solid plan, rather than a very iffy last-ditch effort to dig out of a hole that probably could have been avoided all together, I'd definitely switch carry methods.

I'd even consider walking with a limp to lure them in just so I could take their guns.

"Honest, officer, he just reached out and gave it to me. If he didn't want me to have it he would have shot me, right?"

FTF transfer via gifting is legal among same state residents.

 

[clgustaveson]

I don't think it takes 30 seconds to cyle through but there are distint steps (hence the OODA designation abreviating those steps) that take a finite amount of time. Since the BG doesn't know you're carrying he doesn't know he needs to react to your decision (since you have already reached the A step) so he is already behind the curve. He has to see you move (O), realize that you are drawing a gun (O), decide he is going to defend himself from your attack (D) & THEN act (A). By that time you have hopefully already shot him since your finite time span started way before his even if it is only less than a second. It works even better if you can feign another type of movement to distract them from the draw.

How do you think people are able to take a BG's gun from them & use it against them?

Weapon focus will do nothing but take some analysis out of his Orient step. He already knows you have a gun so he fairly certain you are going for it.

The underlined portion is irrelevant... Do you know what weapon focus is? weapon focus is the phenomenon that individuals focus on a potential threat, this decreases their reaction time.

You are right, the steps are defined and finite, not defined and definite. The time frame can vary wildly in ones cycle to the next. The reason a weapon is able to be taken from an assailant in a SD situation is generally because the assailant didn't plan to use the weapon, only the threat of the weapon.

I'm not going to argue about this all day, a SD situation is a not a math problem with known variables, you cant assume that an assailant didn't plan on their being a counter attack. You are crazy if you think for one second your "formula" is something that will work in more than 10% of SD situations with an assailant that would violently react to an OC situation.

The criminals that would procede to attack someone with an open gun, would have the upper hand in any attack. Psycopathy removes a startle reflex, it is something we have seen in nearly every psychopath, they would not be startled and thus would still have a better reaction time. These criminals are also better prepared and typically better trained in attacks.

So this adds a skew to the metrics you are trying to guage.

 

[finity]

The underlined portion is irrelevant... Do you know what weapon focus is? weapon focus is the phenomenon that individuals focus on a potential threat, this decreases their reaction time.

Um...exactly?

That's what I'm saying. His FOCUS on your WEAPON (hence his WEAPON FOCUS) will decrease his reaction time DUE TO THE FACT that it removes some of the required analysis in the ORIENT step of his OODA loop. He ALREADY KNOWS there is a threat!

You're using the same thing I'm saying to argue against me & say that I'm not correct?

You are right, the steps are defined and finite, not defined and definite. The time frame can vary wildly in ones cycle to the next. The reason a weapon is able to be taken from an assailant in a SD situation is generally because the assailant didn't plan to use the weapon, only the threat of the weapon.

Yep. I know that.

The reason he thinks he won't need to use it is because he knows that most people will comply & so they also WON'T be a threat. IF you have someone who will attempt an attack against a KNOWN threat (an openly-armed person) I think you can reasonably assume that they are then prepared to use it & will use it if a threat (draw) is perceived.

I'm not going to argue about this all day, a SD situation is a not a math problem with known variables, you cant assume that an assailant didn't plan on their being a counter attack.

I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that if you OC then the assailant knows you have a weapon & HAS ALREADY planned for the counter-attack therefore you've limited your options & lost the element of surprise.

You are crazy if you think for one second your "formula" is something that will work in more than 10% of SD situations with an assailant that would violently react to an OC situation.

& you are a fool if you think that your OC "formula" will work in more than 10% of SD situations in which an assailant would react violently to an OC situation. Or is that 100%?

First, I don't have a "formula". I do have an OODA loop. So does the BG. So does everybody. It's the way we're wired. Complain to Boyd if you don't like it. Not that he can do anything about it but he was the one came up with the "formula" to describe it.

Second, 10% is better than 0%.

Besides, I don't get it. We are talking about the differences between OC & CC. You say that there is no advantage in the "element of surprise" that you gain from CC. I say there is a huge advantage. You say that the biggest advantage you gain is the deterrent value you obtain by OC'ing. I agree but I say that if your "deterrence" fails, you're pretty well screwed & have almost no other options but to beat the BG at a western style quick draw where he already knows your going for it & he's already got his gun aimed at your head. The odds are really stacked against you & you will probably LOSE.

The criminals that would procede to attack someone with an open gun, would have the upper hand in any attack. Psycopathy removes a startle reflex, it is something we have seen in nearly every psychopath, they would not be startled and thus would still have a better reaction time. These criminals are also better prepared and typically better trained in attacks.

So this adds a skew to the metrics you are trying to guage.

You're making the assumption that ONLY the psychopaths would dare to attack someone with an openly carried gun.

I say that's not the case. I think that some (many?) criminals who don't meet the clinical definition of "psychopath" could, either through skill, brazenness or stupidity, think that they would be sucessful in their attack if they used surprise to their advantage.

Are cops, soldiers & SD experts "psychopaths" because they have the skills & courage to possibly confront or take-on an openly-armed BG?

Besides, again, I agree with you. Deterrence is the biggest advantage when it comes to OC. I don't have (& I don't know that anyone could have) the numbers to show that the OC deterrence value overrides the CC element of surprise value in surviving an (potential) encounter.

If you have good stats to show me please do. Otherwise to completely discount the "element of surprise" argument against OC is unreasonable.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

The underlined portion is irrelevant... Do you know what weapon focus is? weapon focus is the phenomenon that individuals focus on a potential threat, this decreases their reaction time.

The criminals that would procede to attack someone with an open gun, would have the upper hand in any attack.

That's what I'm saying. His FOCUS on your WEAPON (hence his WEAPON FOCUS) will decrease his reaction time DUE TO THE FACT that it removes some of the required analysis in the ORIENT step of his OODA loop. He ALREADY KNOWS there is a threat!

I pretty much agree with both of you on what weapon focus is, but not necessarily that it would decrease their reaction time. It could increase their reaction time. They are focusing on the weapon so much that it would lead to them not recognizing body language and such. They are watching the right hand and not knowing what the left hand is doing so to say. So they may be watching the pistol on my hip but not the opposite hand going for the knife or going to deflect their weapon while I reach for mine. Or even the hand going for the firearm that is visible.

A trainer on here has stated that one of the training things that he does/have done is a scenario where the officer has his firearm trained on a person with a gun in their hand pointed down. IIRC almost 100% (I think it was every time but not sure) of the time the person with the gun pointed down could bring it up and shoot the person with their gun pointed at them before they could fire. And that was when the person knew the other one was going to shoot. While unholstering will add a bit of time to that, action is always faster than reaction.

Psycopathy removes a startle reflex, it is something we have seen in nearly every psychopath, they would not be startled and thus would still have a better reaction time. These criminals are also better prepared and typically better trained in attacks.

This is something I haven't heard. Do you have any cites? I'm not saying your incorrect but I would like to read it for myself. I haven't seen anything about psychopathy removing the startle reflex.

 

[finity]

I pretty much agree with both of you on what weapon focus is, but not necessarily that it would decrease their reaction time. It could increase their reaction time. They are focusing on the weapon so much that it would lead to them not recognizing body language and such. They are watching the right hand and not knowing what the left hand is doing so to say. So they may be watching the pistol on my hip but not the opposite hand going for the knife or going to deflect their weapon while I reach for mine. Or even the hand going for the firearm that is visible.

I'm saying it will decrease their reaction time on the known threat.

If you are moving toward an unknown weapon while they are focused on the known one thus increasing their reaction time in regard to to the unknown weapon then you kind of make my point about one advantage of CC being an "element of surprise". The known threat is a distraction from the unknown one. I think that would be true of ANY type of distraction you could pull off. Throw your wallet away from them, look over their shoulder to act like someone is there, fall to the floor faking a heart attack, etc.

A trainer on here has stated that one of the training things that he does/have done is a scenario where the officer has his firearm trained on a person with a gun in their hand pointed down. IIRC almost 100% (I think it was every time but not sure) of the time the person with the gun pointed down could bring it up and shoot the person with their gun pointed at them before they could fire. And that was when the person knew the other one was going to shoot. While unholstering will add a bit of time to that, action is always faster than reaction.

I completely agree.

It's all about the OODA loop (or whatever you want to call it).

Even though action is still facter than reaction, the reaction will still be faster toward a known threat than an unknown one.

Try the same experiment above with a person who has NO IDEA that there is a weapon or that the other person is going to become a threat in some way (gun, knife, fists whatever) & I'll bet the measured reaction time will be even longer than if there is already heightened awareness of a known threat.