Army's new SIGs ejecting live rounds, can't handle standard ball ammo.

[phylodog]

I have a bit of an issue with price being the most important factor in choosing the weapons which will be used to defend the country and its military.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Me too. I'm not defending the practice. The amount of money we had to spend and the value of the resources we had to assign to make equipment run reliably because of vendor failures often had to exceed the savings that purchasing got by going with the low cost vendors over the plant's objections.

 

[Woobie]

There's a bit more to it than the money spent up front, at least there should be. It appears the Army is learning that the hard way now.

Sure, there should be. And there probably is. But if I'm sitting in that meeting, it's hard not to say "Yeah, but $100M? Do you want to be the one explaining this in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee?" I mean, there's a lot of fixing that can be done with that kind of wiggle room.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Sure, there should be. And there probably is. But if I'm sitting in that meeting, it's hard not to say "Yeah, but $100M? Do you want to be the one explaining this in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee?" I mean, there's a lot of fixing that can be done with that kind of wiggle room.

Like in my industry analogy, there are feathers to be put in caps, careers to be advanced, promotions to be sought, and like you say, if it costs $50MM dollars to fix the problems, they've still saved $50MM. At least that's the logic I've seen used where I worked.

 

[phylodog]

There could be quite a few dead soldiers as well. I'd prefer to argue spending more money on a firearm which makes more sense than trying to put a price tag on lives.

 

[Vigilant]

Sure, there should be. And there probably is. But if I'm sitting in that meeting, it's hard not to say "Yeah, but $100M? Do you want to be the one explaining this in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee?" I mean, there's a lot of fixing that can be done with that kind of wiggle room.

No explanation necessary when the low bidder doesn’t meet the spec, which these pistols obviously aren’t doing. This whole thing reeks of collusion, do you think the Russians did it? In all seriousness, PEO Soldier, and all the program managers and Army staff officers need to be investigated as does Sig.

 

[phylodog]

Are some lives worth more than others?

 

[Woobie]

There is a lot of handwringing, but I'll be interested to see what the fix is. We went through several stages of product improvements with the M16, and today it is everyone's favorite platform.


Besides, it's not like they're dealing with a bunch of cracked frames....

 

[Vigilant]

There is a lot of handwringing, but I'll be interested to see what the fix is. We went through several stages of product improvements with the M16, and today it is everyone's favorite platform.


Besides, it's not like they're dealing with a bunch of cracked frames....

Slides too. There was plenty of double dealing in the M9trials as well, aircraft sales to Italy, Aviano airbase...

 

[phylodog]

You're right. Just guns that discharge when dropped, puke live ammo while being fired and can't cycle with ball ammunition. Clearly good decisions were made for all the right reasons.

 

[Woobie]

No explanation necessary when the low bidder doesn’t meet the spec, which these pistols obviously aren’t doing. This whole thing reeks of collusion, do you think the Russians did it? In all seriousness, PEO Soldier, and all the program managers and Army staff officers need to be investigated as does Sig.

The Army wound up with M16's because an Air Force general liked the way it blew up watermelons at a BBQ. Defense procurement is ugly business.

 

[Vigilant]

The Army wound up with M16's because an Air Force general liked the way it blew up watermelons at a BBQ. Defense procurement is ugly business.

Hmmm an AR BBQ Gun, wonder how many parts I have in the armory?

 

[Woobie]

Slides too.

Forgot about that.


Makes you wonder if the Army was taking that into consideration when they decided against Glock. Nah, I'm sure it was just a bunch of corruption. Nobody at HQDA was worried about a pistol falling apart in the hands of a soldier.

 

[Vigilant]

Forgot about that.


Makes you wonder if the Army was taking that into consideration when they decided against Glock. Nah, I'm sure it was just a bunch of corruption. Nobody at HQDA was worried about a pistol falling apart in the hands of a soldier.

They really didn’t decide against Glock, Sig was the winner because Big Army wanted Sig. there are already thousands of Glocks in Army Arms rooms, as well now, Navy, and Marine Corp stores, and I’m sure some made their way to the Zoomies as well. Not hearing about ANY problems there?

 

[Vigilant]

Forgot about that.


Makes you wonder if the Army was taking that into consideration when they decided against Glock. Nah, I'm sure it was just a bunch of corruption. Nobody at HQDA was worried about a pistol falling apart in the hands of a soldier.

You meant Glock frames cracking? I was talking about M9’s cracked frames and the slides cracking and separating from the pistol, injuring soldiers?

 

[Woobie]

They really didn’t decide against Glock, Sig was the winner because Big Army wanted Sig. there are already thousands of Glocks in Army Arms rooms, as well now, Navy, and Marine Corp stores, and I’m sure some made their way to the Zoomies as well. Not hearing about ANY problems there?

SOCOM doesn't procure its stuff the same way. They're too cool. It isn't like we hear about every little thing that goes wrong in their world, either.

 

[Woobie]

You meant Glock frames cracking? I was talking about M9’s cracked frames and the slides cracking and separating from the pistol, injuring soldiers?

Sorry, not cracking slides. Flying off the frame, lulz.

Glock 17M Recall Update - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

There is a pretty strong history of .40 Glocks having cracked frames as well, which could be concerning given the Army's interest in using a higher pressure round.

 

[M67]

Sorry, not cracking. Flying off the frame, lulz.

Glock 17M Recall Update - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

Somehow that's acceptable.....not sure why....but glock always gets a pass when they have problems

 

[Woobie]

I'm really not bringing this up to bash Glock. They make a fine pistol. Generic? Sure. As nice as most other pistols in the same class? Hardly. But quality nonetheless. They have served many LEO's well. I only bring this up as a means of introducing some reality. The IMPD Glocks had a pretty embarrassing stumble at introduction. But a fix was developed, we didn't have officers bleeding all over the streets, and the pistols are working well. The Sigs are not flying apart, at least.

Maybe it's every bit as bad as the "see, I told you so" perfection fan boys say it is. In that case, we can all light our collective hair on fire. On the other hand, it might be an easy fix like the IMPD fiasco.

 

[IndyDave1776]

You're right. Just guns that discharge when dropped, puke live ammo while being fired and can't cycle with ball ammunition. Clearly good decisions were made for all the right reasons.

You have quite a gift for putting a plain truth in a plain way!