Bill of sale

[Timjoebillybob]

The only reason for Bill of sale was to prove it was sold. I had been on many forums that said it was a good idea. The dash cam was in case something went bad. Yes I am paranoid.

Unless that BoS was notarized it doesn't really "prove" crap. I met the guy but didn't like the gun, he must of forged my name...

No reason to be paranoid, you just have to follow the law.

I got the feeling from his post he wasn't necessarily being paranoid about the sale, but what can happen during the sale. Robberies aren't that uncommon, especially for craiglist or facebook type of sites.

Whenever I read through these threads, I always understand the polls that say a lot of gun owners support "common sense gun control".

Sad isn't it?

 

[Tomahawkman]

If the seller is adamant on a bill of sale, unless its a deal that's just too good, I more than likely will not buy the firearm. LTCH and DL is what I am willing to provide. All of this would have to be determined prior to meeting.

 

[Dutch68]

Yes---Seller & Buyer are both in charge of their own Personal Decisions

 

[mcapo]

Seems like the overwhelming consensus amongst this small sampling is that providing a DL and LTCH is appropriate though signing a simple bill of sale is a step too far. Still think the video taping is too far; but I understand the safety issue. I am curious (not argumentative) as to what the objection is to attesting to the fact that you are a lawful buyer or seller? Seems just a small bit of C.Y.A? Maybe having too many lawyers in my family has jaded my thought process...

People sign bill of sales all time with cars and the like. Recently sold a Grasshopper and the buyer wanted a bill of sale.

You have already identified yourself; provided non-public information (DL #) and, by the nature of completing a transaction, made yourself subject to all ATF and Indiana laws. A private bill of sale creates much less of a record than purchasing or transferring at an FFL. Those that would refuse a bill of sale; are your also unwilling to buy through an FFL because of the paper trail?

I see nothing wrong with refusing to sign a bill of sale, if that is your preference nor would I object to executing one. Keep your camera at home though...

 

[flatlander]

Was contacted by the FBI a while back about a pistol I had purchased in the 90's thru an FFL. Said they found it during a drug bust. Told them ex had sold it as it was hers. They said ok and were going to destroy it. No big deal.
Use to do reciepts but haven't for a bunch of years and it seems to have been verified for me that it's no big deal.

Bob

 

[wagyu52]

Seems like the overwhelming consensus amongst this small sampling is that providing a DL and LTCH is appropriate though signing a simple bill of sale is a step too far. Still think the video taping is too far; but I understand the safety issue. I am curious (not argumentative) as to what the objection is to attesting to the fact that you are a lawful buyer or seller? Seems just a small bit of C.Y.A? Maybe having too many lawyers in my family has jaded my thought process...

People sign bill of sales all time with cars and the like. Recently sold a Grasshopper and the buyer wanted a bill of sale.

You have already identified yourself; provided non-public information (DL #) and, by the nature of completing a transaction, made yourself subject to all ATF and Indiana laws. A private bill of sale creates much less of a record than purchasing or transferring at an FFL. Those that would refuse a bill of sale; are your also unwilling to buy through an FFL because of the paper trail?

I see nothing wrong with refusing to sign a bill of sale, if that is your preference nor would I object to executing one. Keep your camera at home though...

I sold my first fire arm today. I used a bill of sale that reads:
Buyer certifies that they are not restricted or forbidden by law to own a firearm and buyer states that he/she:
• Has NEVER been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
• Is NOT a fugitive from justice.
• Is NOT an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
• Has NEVER been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
• Is NOT an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
• Has NOT been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
• Having been a citizen of the United states, has NEVER renounced his or her citizenship.
• Is NOT subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
• Has NOT been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
• CAN lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
• Is NOT a person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
I truthfully state that I AM NOT a person who cannot legally buy, receive, and posses firearms and/or ammunition. Will this cover my but if anything were to happen? He signed and dated. I also video recorded the transaction.

This is hardly a simple bill of sale

 

[CraigAPS]

Seems like the overwhelming consensus amongst this small sampling is that providing a DL and LTCH is appropriate though signing a simple bill of sale is a step too far. Still think the video taping is too far; but I understand the safety issue. I am curious (not argumentative) as to what the objection is to attesting to the fact that you are a lawful buyer or seller? Seems just a small bit of C.Y.A? Maybe having too many lawyers in my family has jaded my thought process...

People sign bill of sales all time with cars and the like. Recently sold a Grasshopper and the buyer wanted a bill of sale.

You have already identified yourself; provided non-public information (DL #) and, by the nature of completing a transaction, made yourself subject to all ATF and Indiana laws. A private bill of sale creates much less of a record than purchasing or transferring at an FFL. Those that would refuse a bill of sale; are your also unwilling to buy through an FFL because of the paper trail?

I see nothing wrong with refusing to sign a bill of sale, if that is your preference nor would I object to executing one. Keep your camera at home though...

I, personally, wouldn't have a problem signing a BoS. Like you pointed out, we do it all the time without thinking twice. I would most definitely have a problem with the video. To me, that steps over the bounds of a simple transaction into the realm of invading my privacy. Plus, they say the camera adds 10 lbs. That's 10 lbs I don't need!

 

[mcapo]

This is hardly a simple bill of sale

That is an accurate statement...A 30 second google research seem to show similar language to below.

The buyer declares that the following is true: [FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]The buyer is of legal age to own a firearm of this type [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]The buyer is not violating any local, state, or federal laws by accepting this firearm into his possession The buyer has not been prohibited from taking possession of, owning, or buying firearms legally The buyer acknowledges that no warranty is offered by the seller for the firearm below [/FONT][/FONT]

The seller declares that the following is true: [FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]The seller is the lawful owner of the firearm and has the legal right to sell the firearm The seller has no knowledge of defects in the firearm The firearm has never been used in a manner of questionable or certain illegality The seller assumes no responsibility after the transfer of ownership has taken place [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[DRob]

That is an accurate statement...A 30 second google research seem to show similar language to below.

The buyer declares that the following is true: The buyer is of legal age to own a firearm of this type The buyer is not violating any local, state, or federal laws by accepting this firearm into his possession The buyer has not been prohibited from taking possession of, owning, or buying firearms legally The buyer acknowledges that no warranty is offered by the seller for the firearm below

The seller declares that the following is true: The seller is the lawful owner of the firearm and has the legal right to sell the firearm The seller has no knowledge of defects in the firearm The firearm has never been used in a manner of questionable or certain illegality The seller assumes no responsibility after the transfer of ownership has taken place

This. The bill of sale I use was found online. I ask for IN DL and LTCH.

All a seller needs to do is post his wishes in the ad. If you don't want to play his game, don't play his game. Simple enough!

 

[Lex Concord]

I sold my first fire arm today. I used a bill of sale that reads:
Buyer certifies that they are not restricted or forbidden by law to own a firearm and buyer states that he/she:
• Has NEVER been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
• Is NOT a fugitive from justice.
• Is NOT an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
• Has NEVER been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
• Is NOT an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
• Has NOT been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
• Having been a citizen of the United states, has NEVER renounced his or her citizenship.
• Is NOT subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
• Has NOT been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
• CAN lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
• Is NOT a person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
I truthfully state that I AM NOT a person who cannot legally buy, receive, and posses firearms and/or ammunition. Will this cover my but if anything were to happen? He signed and dated. I also video recorded the transaction.

He still bought it? Wow.

 

[wagyu52]

I have no problem with a simple bill of sale. Make, model, serial number, price, name and date are all fine. Whatever lets you sleep at night but that's all it really does. It's not going to stop the call if something goes south with the firearm, you are the last recorded buyer.
That's what a 4473 transfer is for, if you want that piece of mind.

 

[russc2542]

OK, Leave a dash cam running to back up your side of the story in case things go sideways I can understand (excessive and hardly foolproof but I get it). Video the buyer signing the wannabe 4473 is creepy stalker-esque tin foil hat (and not half as useful) territory.

 

[level0]

Everyone just buy from me, all I need is what the state requires: That you're a proper person. If you have a DL and are of age to carry, let's deal.

There's no requirement for all this baloney paperwork in a private sale. You guys who do that, more power to you I guess. Not my thing.

No LTCH required either - the state does not require a person have an LTCH to buy, sell, or own a firearm. Thank goodness we still live in America. Not all states are so fortunate.

 

[wtburnette]

Everyone just buy from me, all I need is what the state requires: That you're a proper person. If you have a DL and are of age to carry, let's deal.

There's no requirement for all this baloney paperwork in a private sale. You guys who do that, more power to you I guess. Not my thing.

No LTCH required either - the state does not require a person have an LTCH to buy, sell, or own a firearm. Thank goodness we still live in America. Not all states are so fortunate.

AFAIK, in Indy, it is unlawful for any person to sell or give a firearm to any person whom he has a reasonable cause to believe has been convicted of a felony, or is a drug abuser or under the influence of a drug, or is an alcohol abuser or in a state of intoxication, or is mentally incompetent. If you're meeting a stranger, you really have no idea of some of that, except what you can observe (under the influence), unless they show a LTCH. That shows none of those things are true (at least according to the state).

 

[chezuki]

AFAIK, in Indy, it is unlawful for any person to sell or give a firearm to any person whom he has a reasonable cause to believe has been convicted of a felony, or is a drug abuser or under the influence of a drug, or is an alcohol abuser or in a state of intoxication, or is mentally incompetent. If you're meeting a stranger, you really have no idea of some of that, except what you can observe (under the influence), unless they show a LTCH. That shows none of those things are true (at least according to the state).

It really only shows none of those things were true when they got the license.

 

[wtburnette]

It really only shows none of those things were true when they got the license.

That's true and a good point. I guess my CYA is about as needed as a BoS...

 

[LP1]

It really only shows none of those things were true when they got the license.

And assuming that they didn't forge the LTCH. That pink slip is counterfeit-proof, right? (Reminds me of the days when we had paper drivers licenses. I had a lot of 21-year old friends back then.)

 

[miguel]

Way back in the early days of INGO, I agreed to purchase a weapon from someone. It was an item I had been seeking for some time, a little unique. Never mentioned a bill of sale.

When we met for the transaction, guy whips out this bill of sale and says he has a copy for me and one for him. I was floored and stupidly read and signed it, since I wanted the item and hadn't been able to find one anywhere else and was also worried about getting negative rep.

These days, I'd just tell them to **** off.

 

[level0]

AFAIK, in Indy, it is unlawful for any person to sell or give a firearm to any person whom he has a reasonable cause to believe has been convicted of a felony, or is a drug abuser or under the influence of a drug, or is an alcohol abuser or in a state of intoxication, or is mentally incompetent. If you're meeting a stranger, you really have no idea of some of that, except what you can observe (under the influence), unless they show a LTCH. That shows none of those things are true (at least according to the state).

LTCH tie in - it shows nothing other than a person is carrying one. LTCH is a strictly a snapshot in time.

Correct on the reasonable assumptions, however that's part of being a proper person, which I already said is to whom I sell: "...all I need is what the state requires: That you're a proper person."

 

[HoughMade]

You guys are being rough. This bill of sale is no more complex than my partnership agreement.

Seriously though, I'm still mystified with the concept of selling a gun. I mean, theoretically, I know it happens. I just have never understood it.