Carry Gun Match Observations

[Coach]

Sounds like vision is as complicated as hand size. I have always been blessed with good vision. But that is fading.

 

[Mattroth54]

I was talking to a specific person not making a statement in general. Having seen him on the range I was fairly confident he does not have vision problems.

Lack practice and training for sure. Vision is perfect here.

 

[Coach]

Lack practice and training for sure. Vision is perfect here.

Watching you I thought that was the case. Which is why I said what I said in the first place. I think your potential is large.

 

[NHT3]

I haven't had anything close to the number of students that Coach has had but my experience has been that many people see their sights but don't focus on the front sight. I've heard Coach make that statement in several classes and some people don't understand the difference.
You learn very quickly shooting this match that you may not be nearly nearly as prepared to defend yourself as you imagined and a big part of it is not seeing your sights. This match helps people realize practice and training is very important if you plan on defending yourself with a firearm. I've never seen any match/training like this that is available to anyone that wants to show up and have a run at it. Low pressure, fun and very informative. If you want to get an idea of what you don't do well and improve your skills in a controlled setting I can't imagine a better way to do it. If you can park your ego at the door this will be as much fun as anything you have done with your pistol.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member, NRA [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[downrange72]

My only observation is that I wish I could make it to more of the matches.

For me, a match

 

[Topshot]

Wrong match.
This is not IDPA

I'm aware of that, but I don't know what the hardest shot in the carry match will be though I can see where my answer may have caused confusion.

A corrective lens that works at the focal distance of a front sight post is really annoying as a daily wear walk around town and drive a car lens.

Bingo. I bet I wouldn't be legal to drive if my lens was only my bifocal Rx.

If I was going to just shoot bullseye, I'd get a new lens for my Knobloch frames, but I'm only interested in defensive uses.

At least for now, optics aren't allowed in IDPA. I could use one EDC, but not really needed for 99% of self defense. If the 1% occurs, I'll just stay behind cover and not take the shot.

 

[Coach]

Do you know what the hardest shot on the street will be? What if no cover is available?

 

[Topshot]

At some point you reach diminishing returns. I bet 99% of citizens that carry will never need to draw their firearm. Of those that do, 90+% are within the 7 yard range it seems. Perhaps someone like BBI can show otherwise. I'd be OK with 20-25 yards. Even with bad eyesight, I'm confident I can outshoot the great majority of perps if there's no cover. Of course, they just seem to spray and pray so they could get lucky. I never intend to carry a spare mag either, which has been shown to rarely be needed.

 

[Tanfodude]

Well, many here will agree that SA will be your first line of defense, if you have to draw, then it's too late. Also, most here already knows action almost always beats reaction. What Coach is doing on this match is giving people a chance to shoot their carry as fast and as accurately as possible as a training in this match, hence it's a hybrid of USPSA/IDPA.

I hardly shot my carry gun, (hell, I don't even know how it zeroes, LOL) and I should have. With this match, I found out that I can not treat it like a competition gun. As soon as I made that adjustment, I dialed it down on hits. I guess I'm just lazy to go to a range because it's boring unlike going to these matches. That's just me.

 

[bwframe]

At some point you reach diminishing returns. I bet 99% of citizens that carry will never need to draw their firearm. Of those that do, 90+% are within the 7 yard range it seems. Perhaps someone like BBI can show otherwise. I'd be OK with 20-25 yards. Even with bad eyesight, I'm confident I can outshoot the great majority of perps if there's no cover. Of course, they just seem to spray and pray so they could get lucky. I never intend to carry a spare mag either, which has been shown to rarely be needed.

 

[Cameramonkey]

As to the laser, I suspect that even the best shooters in the room that day had no idea how much their POI wanders around the target because they cant visualize it. (and have likely never shot a pistol with a laser to know) It wanders more than you realize just by looking down your sights. The immediate mental response to the laser dancing is like Coach standing over your shoulder yelling in your ear "NO! NOT THERE! NO! NOT THERE EITHER! THATS THE WRONG F***ing SPOT TOO!"

My HD AR has a green laser. I shot it at one of Coach's low (more like NO! ) light shoots. I know it was easier to hit where I wanted than using the sights because I could use the one dot instead of making sure the two sight mechanisms were lined up perfectly. If I couldnt get a sight picture I could still hit the target. I was more accurate. And my laser was all over the target too. I knwo shot faster and more accurate than I would have with my irons because I couldnt always get a good sight picture.

On that note, we need more of those low light shoots, Coach. Those were fun!

And while I'm thinking about it, can we integrate cover into some of the stages? (without the annoying fault lines, just make us hide behind something like we should)

 

[Coach]

At some point you reach diminishing returns. I bet 99% of citizens that carry will never need to draw their firearm. Of those that do, 90+% are within the 7 yard range it seems. Perhaps someone like BBI can show otherwise. I'd be OK with 20-25 yards. Even with bad eyesight, I'm confident I can outshoot the great majority of perps if there's no cover. Of course, they just seem to spray and pray so they could get lucky. I never intend to carry a spare mag either, which has been shown to rarely be needed.

It is not the odds of needing a gun but the stakes. That is the way Tom Givens describes it. He has the data and the experience. Why are you confident that you can out shoot a perp? Because you are that good or because they are that bad or a combination. Clyde Barrow was pretty good. You cannot count on them sucking. You cannot count on the bad guys not getting lucky. They do have several things in their favor. Plus anyone of us can miss. How much practice do you have in a stress filled environment?

Magazines are the biggest problem with malfunctions, why would you only carry one? If it is sometimes needed how do you know your situation will not need it. BTDT people usually carry a back up gun.

I don't know you and I am not a liberal in the respect that I am going to tell you how to live. But it seems from posts in this thread that you are making decisions more about what you want than the way things are and what history tells us. I hope none of us have to ever test our skills in this arena, but if we do the right people come out on top.

 

[Coach]

As to the laser, I suspect that even the best shooters in the room that day had no idea how much their POI wanders around the target because they cant visualize it. (and have likely never shot a pistol with a laser to know) It wanders more than you realize just by looking down your sights. The immediate mental response to the laser dancing is like Coach standing over your shoulder yelling in your ear "NO! NOT THERE! NO! NOT THERE EITHER! THATS THE WRONG F***ing SPOT TOO!"

My HD AR has a green laser. I shot it at one of Coach's low (more like NO! ) light shoots. I know it was easier to hit where I wanted than using the sights because I could use the one dot instead of making sure the two sight mechanisms were lined up perfectly. If I couldnt get a sight picture I could still hit the target. I was more accurate. And my laser was all over the target too. I knwo shot faster and more accurate than I would have with my irons because I couldnt always get a good sight picture.

On that note, we need more of those low light shoots, Coach. Those were fun!

And while I'm thinking about it, can we integrate cover into some of the stages? (without the annoying fault lines, just make us hide behind something like we should)

I have such an idea. I can see the wobble on the front sight. And I can deal with it faster than the wobble of a laser.

 

[jwo483]

I have such an idea. I can see the wobble on the front sight. And I can deal with it faster than the wobble of a laser.

On the ccover thing. From a buddy on the ISP Swat Team : "Unless you're carrying an engine block with you, you probably have no cover. Contrary to TV, hiding around the corner won't get it done"

 

[NHT3]

I learned that, for me, the Delta point is faster than sights but my view of the front sight is 2 on a good day and 3 on other days. Everyone has to figure out for themselves what actually is most effective. I honestly can't think of another way to find out what works for you in real world type situations other than this match.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member, [/FONT]NRA Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[Cameramonkey]

On the ccover thing. From a buddy on the ISP Swat Team : "Unless you're carryuing an engine block with you, you probably have no cover. Contrary to TV, hiding around the corner won't get it done"

Fine. "can we integrate some CONCEALMENT into the stages?"

Better, jwo?

And my comment on the wandering sights wasnt directed at you, Coach. I specifically heard an experienced participant making a big deal about it like their poo doesnt stink. (and by extension, they wouldnt have ANY wobble )

 

[jwo483]

Fine. "can we integrate some CONCEALMENT into the stages?"

Better, jwo?

And my comment on the wandering sights wasnt directed at you, Coach. I specifically heard an experienced participant making a big deal about it like their poo doesnt stink. (and by extension, they wouldnt have ANY wobble )

As found in IDPA without fault lines, cover it is just too subjective, if it's being scored as a competition.

 

[Coach]

We can do some concealment. We have done a little and will do more. These matches cannot be everything to everyone and not all of that at the same time.
I just want to make the concealment not a food fight about how much it has to be used. I will think on it.

Lasers have their time and place. If needing to use cover and cannot get a traditional sight picture, low light or dark, bad vision, trying to give one final warning without having to shoot someone. A laser on a chest cuts through a ton of communication problems.

But if that is the only way you can get hits your shooting skills are lacking.

As has been said upstream calling shots is a key skill and many people don't know what it is or how to do it or how much it helps things happen at speed.

 

[Cameramonkey]

As found in IDPA without fault lines, cover it is just too subjective, if it's being scored as a competition.

As long as we can all be adults and not get all butthurt because somebody wasnt utilizing cover "properly" I would hope it would be OK. Its not like we are playing the game for guns or cash prizes so it really shouldnt matter if a shooter's leg isnt totally behind the barrier. As long as the shooter is leaning and is utilizing it I'd be OK. (and we dont/cant have targets that require crazy angles to get around due to the venue which seems to be what causes issues.)

Unfortunately with IDPA there were just too many people taking it way too seriously. Granted I've only been shooting IDPA for a handful of years, but I havent personally seen any issues with subjective cover calls being an issue before the lines were implemented.

And this isnt USPSA or IDPA. So Coach doesnt necessarily need to follow their cover rules to prevent contention. Setting more relaxed rules could help mitigate butthurt by the hardcore gamers.

 

[rvb]

As to the laser, I suspect that even the best shooters in the room that day had no idea how much their POI wanders around the target because they cant visualize it. (and have likely never shot a pistol with a laser to know) It wanders more than you realize just by looking down your sights.

The sights wobble the same regardless whether the pistol you hold has irons or a dot/laser. you can see it w/ the irons, too, but as I said above that's a function of seeing. Yes, it's easier to see w/ a dot/laser, but can be seen with irons.

I've said for a long time learning to shoot with a dot is a wonderful tool. It teaches what you SHOULD be seeing with the irons. I remember after a couple years of shooting almost exclusively with a dot being kinda blown away when I started training with irons again with how much I could see happening with the front sight.

The dot is easier to aim assuming your index gets it on target quickly. It requires only a single focal plane for your eye. It's easier for your eye to see what is happening in recoil.

The challenge with a dot is there is so much feedback thrown at you. if you aren't used to seeing all that wobble, can you really tell where the dot lifted from and call your shot? do you over-muscle the gun to tame the recoil? Also, where we accept a FS wider than the target and some wobble where we can call it good enough and break the shot with irons, but with a dot people tend to over-aim, trying to hold that little dot dead on the spot... this leads to over-gripping, flinching, and snatching the trigger (the "now!" syndrome vs just letting the shot break). People who have never shot with a dot usually do worse before they do better for these reasons.

-rvb